MDMA : Is it really that artificial ?

[Guest]

Hullo !

I'd like to have a discussion regarding the MDMA trip.

During the last few months, I've began to disregard this psychoactive more and more, considering it to produce a deceptive trip.

I'm not a heavy user, I must have made like 5 trips in my whole life (the first one was three years ago), and MDMA never really pushed me to do/tell things I regreted later.

Lately there's been a lot of topics regarding its effects, but none concerned directly the "authenticity" of the trip, hencefore my question :

Do you believe that the "you" who's tripping under MDMA is the "real" you, who's now without fear, without inhibitions and who says things that you would say yourself without those usual social restrictions ? Or do you think (as I tend to do) that MDMA only turns you into some sort of light minded fool, who's exagerating everything (especially his love towards his friends) and who's made to believe things that are untrue ?

As much as I tend to opt for the latter approach, something I read lately made me reconsider the authenticity of the effects. MDMA isn't a euphorisant (damn, not sure this word exists, well, you see what I mean) but a mood stimulator. I've also realised that while tripping under MDMA, I still think that some people that I don't like in my everyday life deserves a big slap in their face.

Put in an extremely basic way, and if I'm not mistaken, MDMA only's action is to stimulate the production of serotonin, so actually we're not feeling the effect's of MDMA but the serotonin's ones. Does someone knows how exactly this substance influence us in our everyday lives ? I know that I could just go on wikipedia and have a look, but I feel this subject would be more interesting to discuss with you, as I don't think that a definitive answer can be given

 

[vajrakana]

As far as the literature is concerned, MDMA's action is -not- just the release of seratonin. There is a significantly complex effect which is not understood that has to do with all sorts of ten dollar words, reverse neural pathways, and so on (look it up on Wikipedia and etc for all the gritty details). The seratonin release is part of the effect, but it's just a bit of the euphoria. It is currently unknown what causes the various "empathic" effects.

As far as feeling like the 'real' you, well.. now that's a terribly loaded question I believe that what the MDMA experience is like is directly related to the state of mind you have just prior to it's effects taking hold. If you go into it in a calm state, and semi meditative, you lose none of your judging capability and only have your barriers stripped down. But it seems to be that no matter -what- state you are in, the general effects are good.

As far as 'real-ness' goes, sure. The tiny critical voice of fear and rejection that gets snuffed during an MDMA experience is a weight, not a help, to us all. Nobody has ever said they've suddenly become a pacifist afterwards, however there is certainly evidence that violence and aggression are lessened, in many cases lifelong. Also, lasting breakthroughs are to be had all over the place with people whom have PTSD.

As I said, the judging mind seems not to be disengaged.. it is just the patina of fear that surrounds us socially that seems to vanish for a time, so it's not surprising that you would feel basically the same about people whom are assholes Then again, it might open you up to someone who you -thought- was an ass, but who actually is just hyper-fear-mongering: under MDMA that goes away and they experience life in a more direct way.

Is it the 'real 'you? I don't know. I think it's more about who you want to be, and there isn't any way to objectify consciousness or purpose.

Now, all of this is assuming the person is only using MDMA. All bets are off if that person has imbibed something else, including alcohol.

 

[Guest]

Alright, so you'll agree that one of MDMA effect is to remove a otherwise constant fear.

But then, is fear really a bad thing ?

In my opinion fear is firstly a defensive reaction, without fear people would do tons of things that'll get them into huge troubles (as you mentionned, if this person drank alcool, she will surely begin to do really stupid things)

Yet it is true that fear can easily do much more than this role, which will result into being afraid of things irrationally. When this happens, fear prevents us from seing the truth and can lead to very stupid behaviour.

The balance is delicate, too little fear and you'll become reckless, too much and you'll inibithed & shy.

Now the question his, to what extend does MDMA dimish our natural fear ?

 

[silv]

Although I've never been in the position to experience MDMA I do have some thoughts about the "is it the real you?" point.
I think everything our mind can do is the real you. I think there is a small part of you that's the "MDMA-you" and that that's just a part of your mind. Just as I think there is a "Cannabis-you". I think that these are all products of our own mind but that the interaction with a substance shows you parts of your mind that you would normally have a hard time exploring.
So yeah, I think that MDMA does not only turn you into some sort of light minded fool, who's exagerating everything (especially his love towards his friends) and who's made to believe things that are untrue ? But rather that it shows you a part of yourself that experiences alot of feelings in a much more pure way.

 

[Forkbender]

MDMA is like a muscle relaxant, it helps you relax, feel good about yourself and so on. But once you are there it IS pretty flat and boring. I think MDMA is a wonderful therapeutic tool for people who are overly tense. If taken under therapeutic circumstances, a few MDMA trips can change a person. After a while it doesn't really add anything anymore, so you might want to consider psychedelics.

 

[Guest]

Although I've never been in the position to experience MDMA I do have some thoughts about the "is it the real you?" point.
I think everything our mind can do is the real you. I think there is a small part of you that's the "MDMA-you" and that that's just a part of your mind. Just as I think there is a "Cannabis-you". I think that these are all products of our own mind but that the interaction with a substance shows you parts of your mind that you would normally have a hard time exploring.
So yeah, I think that MDMA does not only turn you into some sort of light minded fool, who's exagerating everything (especially his love towards his friends) and who's made to believe things that are untrue ? But rather that it shows you a part of yourself that experiences alot of feelings in a much more pure way.

Yeah, my description was flawed... Actually, now that I've thought a bit about it, the real question is :


"Does MDMA makes you act rationally?"
(ie having good sense and sound judgment)

After a while it doesn't really add anything anymore, so you might want to consider psychedelics.

That quite sums up what I was thinking.[/i]

 

[Forkbender]

"Does MDMA makes you act rationally?"
(ie having good sense and sound judgment)

No. It makes you act emotionally, although you are still in charge.

 

[silv]

"Does MDMA makes you act rationally?"
(ie having good sense and sound judgment)

After a while it doesn't really add anything anymore, so you might want to consider psychedelics.

That quite sums up what I was thinking.[/i]

I think the question is quite easy to answer if you take a sort of common sense approach to the definition of of "acting rationally". No I don't think it does, but in the same sense I think psychedelics don't either. The question then arises: "Is this something bad?". I don't think so, I think rationality is worth alot but a plurality of mindstates can IMO only expand your understanding of people and their ways. I can't comment on what Forkbender says but I guess there's a good point. Although I sort of have a feeling that a first experience can really show you some interesting stuff, if only because it's something you haven't done before and thus takes you out of your comfy "I already know this" zone.

 

[Guest]

"Does MDMA makes you act rationally?"
(ie having good sense and sound judgment)

No. It makes you act emotionally, although you are still in charge.

Which means that by taking MDMA you're forfeiting your good sense for the duration of the trip ?

 

[Forkbender]

^ I would not equate unemotional hyperrationality with good sense. Wisdom to me is achieved when rationality and emotion are connected, for they do not conflict in essence. This is possible with MDMA, although a lot of people tend to get dragged along with it for a bit.

 

[Meduzz]

I don't mind that MDMA is artificial, for me it's just an awesome party drug

 

[Psychoid]

In my opinion, when under the influence of MDMA you are still the real you, but you are more emotional and instinctive.

 

[Brugmansia]

It isn't a muscle relaxant, it contracts the muscles. But neurological the user is experiencing a relaxed wakeful state which overpowers the signal of physical movements and impulses.

It doesn't change someone, but it dissolutes the defenses around your inner life and one may have the indication that what he's disclosing won't affect his vulnerability.

It is the real person, but with no barriers around his deepest heart feelings.

In everyone there circulates something that you wouldn't expect from him. Usually sealed off. If this deep content is given away because the seal is temporarly dissoluted, it might come across as 'someone else'.

But in fact, it's nothing more that a diverse side of the person which you wouldn't link to him in first instance.

Regarding the exaggerating issue, despite the fact it's just true, it is said in utterly positive phrases.

As for myself, I'm now used to deep psychedelic solo experiences, and MDMA feels pretty much like a chemical mood loader.

I hadn't used it in like 3 years till December, while I'd pick it till then as of the best substances in existance. Based on January 2005. Now it has nearly no role anymore in my life since December. It felt way too much like plastic.

 

[Forkbender]

It isn't a muscle relaxant, it contracts the muscles. But neurological the user is experiencing a relaxed wakeful state which overpowers the signal of physical movements and impulses.

Yes. I meant "like a muscle relaxant" precisely in this sense.

 

[spice]

It can only work with what YOU bring to the table, people.

 

[spice]

Read the range of answers, it's like someone asked;


What's love?

 

[spice]

For instance, when I do it, I hallucinate.....all kinds of crazy shit happens....I get philosophical, and can't talk chemistry AT ALL......I like to go outside, at night, preferably in deep winter....and I can 'feel' the trees, and the earth....


It doesn't affect me in the ways you all are discussing....it makes me feel the earths pulse, and grounds me in the knowledge that the earth itself is where all these feelings come from.


It is wayyyy psychedelic for me......I don't know why.

 

[vajrakana]

I'm guessing my approach to this might be a bit different than most, as I have a lot of meditation experience, and meditate every day as well. So, I am already somewhat in touch with aspects of my 'self'.. my observer, as it were, is a bit clearer.

So. MDMA is a truly profound experience for me. I am able to take myself into a semi samadhi, while still enjoying the effects it has on my emotions and inhibitions. And all the while, I am completely aware that I am in an "altered" state, which I take advantage of heavily. I am also more in tune with nature, and energy.

I wouldn't do it without at least one partner whom I loved and trusted, and I most enjoy it in a casual setting with a good group of people of like mind.

Honestly, everyone here is talking about "artificial" states of being.. we are _already_ in an artificial state of being, and of mind. If you stop clinging so heavily to what you perceive of as "normal" then you are free to experience ranges of being that go well beyond our conditioning at the hands of society, and which can give us insight into the primordial state.

Anyone curious about that should look up "Dzogchen", although I am not a Namkhai Norbu fan, he is very active in this area.

Adding psychedelics to the mix is not a substitute for basic meditation. Everyone can benefit from meditation, and it is very easy to do. It just takes desire and persistence. Look up "samatha" for answers.

 

[buffachino]

Rationality is an inductive categorical baseline; which is individually arbitrary.
One couldn’t explore the mysteries of space by keeping their feet on the ground.
Once you’ve been to the moon, you can appreciate the affinity with earth a lot more.
You can understand the affinity of existence.

MDMA is empathic stimulus evocation.
Instead of identifying sensation with an objective, one associates it with an emotion.

This can show people previously ignored relationships.
Or can elicit new ones.

But as for the corporeality of the relation,
this is something left for the ego to discern.

 

[vajrakana]

As spice has said (to paraphrase), "you get what you bring to it"

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on things happening that you might be embarrassed about later.. boundaries crossed, and so on. Some people experience the sensation of love or infatuation, and keep that sense. Only their head which tells them "that was an altered state" defuses that emotional connection.

Which does not, of course, invalidate it at all. I think that if you enter into an MDMA influenced state and you are emotionally inexperienced, you'll have some trouble along those lines. But if you are a free spirit naturally, you will have less trouble.

I honestly can't understand why people do MDMA, and then struggle with these things afterwards.. well.. I *know*, but it is so much easier to just let go and let the emotions caress you, letting go of the expectations. Then you can't be disappointed.

I have developed emotional connections inside of MDMA states that have persisted to this day.. inside myself I have allowed them to persist. The other people involved have allowed them to atrophy somewhat, but are still good friends.

You get what you bring to it. You take away what you like.