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Oké I over reacted and preassumed some things that I shouldn't have. Now I only got everybody in a defensive mood.
I felt a ridiculisation of Christians in general in this discussion. That's what triggered me. I don't call myself a Christian, but I felt some disrespectfull undertone for the choice of someone going to a Church at Christmas in stead of swallowing some shrooms in the forest. Let anyone decide for himself, I'd say.
Christianity is there in a very great variety, and one interpretation of the bible fits better to certain kinds of christian religion than others. I wonder, did you ever read the bible?
Agreed. Now, what's wrong with going to a church, listening to inspiring stories for people's lifes, regardless if anything is based on a true story? If someone wants to do this with a bit of psilocine in his brain, just go ahead. I don't think it will actually add anything to it, but feel free to try.
I don't think it's very important if a story is based on truth. Jesus told a lot of fiction to bring his message. He was way ahead of the people then, and now. Shrooms actually do the same. How visual can a story be told to you? When I read about Jesus in the bible, I see a hint of that magic too. I think you're right, and lots of stuff Jesus said is from older stories that were lost in history. I'm glad there are still some conserved in the bible (I think there's a lot of bullshit too, from Roman emperor's who want more religious power to influence the people for his own benefit). A lot of christian preachers nowadays have the talent of translating the message to ordinary people like you and me.
I felt a ridiculisation of Christians in general in this discussion. That's what triggered me. I don't call myself a Christian, but I felt some disrespectfull undertone for the choice of someone going to a Church at Christmas in stead of swallowing some shrooms in the forest. Let anyone decide for himself, I'd say.
Space-is-the-Place a dit:
Christianity is there in a very great variety, and one interpretation of the bible fits better to certain kinds of christian religion than others. I wonder, did you ever read the bible?
HC a dit:
Agreed. Now, what's wrong with going to a church, listening to inspiring stories for people's lifes, regardless if anything is based on a true story? If someone wants to do this with a bit of psilocine in his brain, just go ahead. I don't think it will actually add anything to it, but feel free to try.
I don't think it's very important if a story is based on truth. Jesus told a lot of fiction to bring his message. He was way ahead of the people then, and now. Shrooms actually do the same. How visual can a story be told to you? When I read about Jesus in the bible, I see a hint of that magic too. I think you're right, and lots of stuff Jesus said is from older stories that were lost in history. I'm glad there are still some conserved in the bible (I think there's a lot of bullshit too, from Roman emperor's who want more religious power to influence the people for his own benefit). A lot of christian preachers nowadays have the talent of translating the message to ordinary people like you and me.
Because christianity is a long sworn enemy of almost everyone on this site.
If a story is used to maintain such a power as the international christian movement is, you bet its important if its based on truth or not. Laws are being made based upon those teachings. Biliona of people actually believe in it literally. Don't you think those people would start to think a little differently and open minded once they found out they've been lied to for centuries?
People are being brainwashed to believe some stories which have been proven wrong by research. These people are leading their lives according to principles based on stories they put trust in. People decide what is accepted in society and not, based on the same principles.
Maybe its a bit harder to see the big picture of it because we live in Holland. You dont have anything to fear while doing your, somewhat forbidden experiments with mushrooms Pas. Would you have been born in the US, this would have been a very different story.
The point is, christianity does not tolerate pychonauts though some christians do. However dont expect any understanding, respect or even an open mind from christian politicians. Prove me wrong
You know, some research seems to imply that the roots of all world religion inlcuding Christianity is based on the ceremonial use of hallucinogens. Don't you feel that if thats true or even if there's a remote chance that its true, its extremely important for us all that this truth comes out? Especially since we can all agree here, that some psychedelic experiences are among the most profound religious encounters one could ever hope to experience in ones lfie?
HC
G
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Guest
So Forest, how's you doin' this christmass? 
First of all, Happy new year!
There is a diffence between people concidering themselves a Christian and Christianity on itself. I can't talk to Christianity, because it is not a person.
I have friends who call themselves a Christian, and I don't consider them enemies. And I even see they found some deep happiness in it. I also have a friend who I find in my opinion a Christian Fundamentalist. A really nice guy, but very strict and not open minded, when it comes to religion. Still, it doesn't help to call him my enemy, even if I think he's not practicing his religion on a healthy way. I can only to a certain level say I don't agree to his vision on "God's rules" and his view on the bible as a holy book (I see it as a historical book, as any other old book). A funny thing is that he probably sees me as a lost sheep that somehow needs to be taken back to the flock. And I see him the same way. It won't bring us any further to fight, just trying to bend a bit by being an example or letting it rest.
Agreed :wink:
It would be a very nice theme for a documentary on TV. I would support your effort to bring it to the news. In the near future there will be a new TV channel on Dutch TV where there will be only backgrounds to the news and documentaries. Mayby it's an idea to write to this new channel with some links to Pharmatic inquisition and T. McKenna to bring some more understanding among the public for psychedelics. There is a long way to go.
HeartCore a dit:
There is a diffence between people concidering themselves a Christian and Christianity on itself. I can't talk to Christianity, because it is not a person.
I have friends who call themselves a Christian, and I don't consider them enemies. And I even see they found some deep happiness in it. I also have a friend who I find in my opinion a Christian Fundamentalist. A really nice guy, but very strict and not open minded, when it comes to religion. Still, it doesn't help to call him my enemy, even if I think he's not practicing his religion on a healthy way. I can only to a certain level say I don't agree to his vision on "God's rules" and his view on the bible as a holy book (I see it as a historical book, as any other old book). A funny thing is that he probably sees me as a lost sheep that somehow needs to be taken back to the flock. And I see him the same way. It won't bring us any further to fight, just trying to bend a bit by being an example or letting it rest.
For me - no I don't think differently about Christ's words once I found out about some lies. Some words in the bible actually became much clearer to me.
Maybe its a bit harder to see the big picture of it because we live in Holland. You dont have anything to fear while doing your, somewhat forbidden experiments with mushrooms Pas. Would you have been born in the US, this would have been a very different story.
The point is, christianity does not tolerate pychonauts though some christians do. However dont expect any understanding, respect or even an open mind from christian politicians. Prove me wrong
Agreed :wink:
It would be a very nice theme for a documentary on TV. I would support your effort to bring it to the news. In the near future there will be a new TV channel on Dutch TV where there will be only backgrounds to the news and documentaries. Mayby it's an idea to write to this new channel with some links to Pharmatic inquisition and T. McKenna to bring some more understanding among the public for psychedelics. There is a long way to go.
I'm actually very tired of trying to get this aired. And I dont expect a change with the current political climate, our leader Balkenende, is more concerned about dumb tvshows like Lingo.
Not to say I stop trying but a remark the late Terence Mckenna made sums it up I think:
'The biggest mystery about these things (hallucinogens) is how they are able to keep the lid on it'. Because what we are all discussing and experiencing here is not new, its thousands of years old. And fucking nothing nada noppes on Discovery.
But I tried to write various tv stations last year. Most never replied.
Yes I already mentioned that in the same post you where replying to
And you are right but there is a big but here in my opinion. Christians have a vote and they generally vote for a christian party. These christian parties deny me my religion. Its as simple as I state it here and so true. Due to the christian political parties, people are denied their freedom of religion.
If they vote CDA or CU, they surely are, you can't deny that. And ignorance is no excuse ever.
Yes I can understand where you are going but in my opinion, you make a mistake here. I am not calling these people enemy because it makes me feel good of because I think I'm better but I'm merely stating a fact. And beause he's open minded, you can't even begin to think of how to get those wrong ideas of of his head.
I dont have a problem with a christian who believes what they want, go to church twice every sunday. Hell I even live with the fucking bells each sunday morning. But the thing is, and that was my point, christianity is very closely entangled with politics. Christian parties want to get a much much stricter policy on all drugs. Christian parties want to put me in jail. Thus, everyone who votes a christian party, is my enemy.
Clear?
funny, although i see a lot of frustration that I have experienced too i have to say that there really is no such thing as christianity. The large group of christians supporting balkje and cu and such are a pain in the butt and sadly they are a large group. However Rastafarianism to name something is also a part of this supposed "christianity" and we all know that they think quite differently than this group you're talking about.
Also of my friends/family that i like there are quite a couple of christians and not a single one of them voted cda/cu. Probably a minority, but the problem is there indeed is a large group of retards who vote cda because cda is christian, and who agree with balkje because he's christian. Not because they actually thought about it themselves. Anyway my point is supposed to be that i would like you to not bash "christianity" as a whole but use a term like "them fucking cda voters" or shit. Since I get a tiny bit offended if you say this stuff about my parents (who are groen links/sp voting christians).
Also of my friends/family that i like there are quite a couple of christians and not a single one of them voted cda/cu. Probably a minority, but the problem is there indeed is a large group of retards who vote cda because cda is christian, and who agree with balkje because he's christian. Not because they actually thought about it themselves. Anyway my point is supposed to be that i would like you to not bash "christianity" as a whole but use a term like "them fucking cda voters" or shit. Since I get a tiny bit offended if you say this stuff about my parents (who are groen links/sp voting christians).
Brewmaster
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Our Republican party has become the "holy rollers christian club". Funny how all they want to do is go to war.
Go figure.
Go figure.
petfles a dit:
And dont forget people who want to die but are not allowed so..
But christianity is a problem and always has been. You cant just forget 1900 years of repression and brutalisation of everyone who is not a christian on this planet. Maybe the greatest miracle about psilocybin and ayahuasca is that we can still have the opportunity to have these experiences regardless of all the efforts the christian church has done over the centuries to get rid of all the evidence. And I mean this literally, the Spanish inquisition knew very well what those people in South America where using and they had the obvjective, sanctioned by Rome, to eliminate this religion (also literally).
Rastafarian christians? You got that wrong. A Rastafarian is a Rastafarian as a christian is a christian as a judaist is a judaist. There is another so called christian movement called Santo Daime. But this is in fact just a very smart move by intelligent people to sanction the use of ayahuasca. This is not christianity that I'm talking about. Chrsitianity is about believing that Jesus died for your sins on the cross, was dead for three days and then resurrected and moved to heaven and wanting to impose this trip on everyvody else. And if that doesnt become clear from my posts that I mean that, than I dont know what will
Maybe we can try an experiment. We could individually search the web for open minded christian movements, go there, introduce ourselve. Talk about God, Jesus. Try to understand their point of view and make damn sure you really do. Then, after a year or so, carefully introduce psychedelics in that community. Try to stay friendly, keep weeding out the white lies they bring to the discussion time and time and time again. Keep explaining the negative propaganda that they bring into the discussion time and time and time again (you know, mushrooms lead to heroin etc).
What will happen is that you will get a lot of bullshit over you. You will be seen as criminal, madman and whatnot. You will become very tired of expleining the same point time and time again. Very tired of realizing that people are not even reading what you write and just have this preconception of you being pure evil.
I realize this may come across as ranting towards christians and maybe in some way it is. But it should not be seen as displaying hate towards a group of people but for me its developed out of nescessity:
Why is it that my religion is forbidden? Why is it that all those new age movements are perfectly legal but taking a plant in my own home, isnt allowed? I do have a very clear answer to that for myself but I'm sure that will stir up even more shit so I keep it to myself for now
In any case, christianity is shaping dutch politics for a big part the coming time and they have been nibbling away at our freedom already the past few years. This is why I feel its important to make this open for discussion, maybe we even find a way to do something smart overhere as Santo Daime did in Brazil. Fuck the VOC, rght (toch dutch inside joke sorry guys )?
I'm convinced, for real, that Bush really believes Jesus will return one block away from the white house when he does.
HC
HeartCore a dit:
But christianity is a problem and always has been. You cant just forget 1900 years of repression and brutalisation of everyone who is not a christian on this planet. Maybe the greatest miracle about psilocybin and ayahuasca is that we can still have the opportunity to have these experiences regardless of all the efforts the christian church has done over the centuries to get rid of all the evidence. And I mean this literally, the Spanish inquisition knew very well what those people in South America where using and they had the obvjective, sanctioned by Rome, to eliminate this religion (also literally).
Rastafarian christians? You got that wrong. A Rastafarian is a Rastafarian as a christian is a christian as a judaist is a judaist. There is another so called christian movement called Santo Daime. But this is in fact just a very smart move by intelligent people to sanction the use of ayahuasca. This is not christianity that I'm talking about. Chrsitianity is about believing that Jesus died for your sins on the cross, was dead for three days and then resurrected and moved to heaven and wanting to impose this trip on everyvody else. And if that doesnt become clear from my posts that I mean that, than I dont know what will
Maybe we can try an experiment. We could individually search the web for open minded christian movements, go there, introduce ourselve. Talk about God, Jesus. Try to understand their point of view and make damn sure you really do. Then, after a year or so, carefully introduce psychedelics in that community. Try to stay friendly, keep weeding out the white lies they bring to the discussion time and time and time again. Keep explaining the negative propaganda that they bring into the discussion time and time and time again (you know, mushrooms lead to heroin etc).
What will happen is that you will get a lot of bullshit over you. You will be seen as criminal, madman and whatnot. You will become very tired of expleining the same point time and time again. Very tired of realizing that people are not even reading what you write and just have this preconception of you being pure evil.
I realize this may come across as ranting towards christians and maybe in some way it is. But it should not be seen as displaying hate towards a group of people but for me its developed out of nescessity:
Why is it that my religion is forbidden? Why is it that all those new age movements are perfectly legal but taking a plant in my own home, isnt allowed? I do have a very clear answer to that for myself but I'm sure that will stir up even more shit so I keep it to myself for now
In any case, christianity is shaping dutch politics for a big part the coming time and they have been nibbling away at our freedom already the past few years. This is why I feel its important to make this open for discussion, maybe we even find a way to do something smart overhere as Santo Daime did in Brazil. Fuck the VOC, rght (toch dutch inside joke sorry guys )?
I'm convinced, for real, that Bush really believes Jesus will return one block away from the white house when he does.
HC[/quote:jmuheiay]
Nice writing! you made a lot of points alot clearer to me
And I guess I just don't want to believe that soo many christians are really as bad as one would think. Nice challenge too, actually I might just try this with my parents. I do wonder how they see psychedelic drugs like shroomz and stuff. They're quite open about mary jane so I wonder what they think about shroomz On Rastafarianism, if you look at their religion I guess you're right that it isn't christianity per sé but from what I've read about it, it's a very close relative to christian faith, even using the King James version of the Bible as a holy book (or at least book of inspiration).
And then there is the assumption:
If so, the world is not religious but blind of power and driven by fear of losing it. Difficult subject to talk about with firm 'believers' but their reaction can say a lot about the spiritual progress of a person and the world.
[/url]
http://www.nick2211.yage.net/indoles.htm
If so, the world is not religious but blind of power and driven by fear of losing it. Difficult subject to talk about with firm 'believers' but their reaction can say a lot about the spiritual progress of a person and the world.
[/url]
HeartCore a dit:
...and in Holland everybody wears wooden shoes.
But I know what you mean. You've been to forums with lots of non open minded Christians, fearing to loose their religion, even feeling ashamed when doubting the existance of God. Man, those people are just scared, have a bit of mercy on those people. I noticed a lot of deeply religious people often are not very intelligent, and just need these rules to know what to do and how to live.
On the other hand, once you do meet open minded Christians, be as open to them as you would like them to be to you. I mean, if you start accusing them of all the things you just said, don't expect them to immediately agree that using drugs probably leads to the enlighting they thought to have found and is really a highway to God.
*jokingly*I can agree with that! The more you trust folks, the less they let you down.
Yesterday i was watching Jesus Camp
Don't really know what to think about it... At least there were some very interesting (wise) kids and very disturbed adults. Like everywhere. I don't know, religion seems like just another way of hiding yourself from fear. Like our wealth and borders.. Man, to grow up believing you have a higher goal to achieve in this live seems better than to grow up without guidance. Kids these days grow up watching television, what is worse?..
Yesterday i was watching Jesus Camp
Don't really know what to think about it... At least there were some very interesting (wise) kids and very disturbed adults. Like everywhere. I don't know, religion seems like just another way of hiding yourself from fear. Like our wealth and borders.. Man, to grow up believing you have a higher goal to achieve in this live seems better than to grow up without guidance. Kids these days grow up watching television, what is worse?..Have mercy with those people? Why have mercy with someone who makes a conscious choice to remain ignorant and as a direct effect of that, chooses a certain political party that directly influences the choices I can make regarding my lifestyle?
Often not intelligent, sure, but often they are...
I dont get my point across it seems... Everybody is upset whenever the word sharia comes in the media. We don't want that because its barbaric. We say away with it because its not scientifically founded but based on religion and we want to have religion and state seperated. In fact, we are proud that this is the case in our country Right? (hint: pan head in vertical directions
)Welll I have news, there is a western version of sharia in place that effects virtually all users of hallucinogens on the planet. It makes perfect sense once you see this. In the US, this is certainly the case, your life will be ruined very effectively by the government when you break drug laws.
In Holland, the situation is a little better, thats a fact but its also true that both CDA and CU, both christian parties, want a stricter drugpolicy, more specifically, related to cannabis. Well the fact of the matter is that keeping cannabis illegal is scientifically unfounded and socially immoral hence druglaws equals some sort of sharia. And sharia are laws based on a conscious choice to remain ignorant
Mercy my fucking ass....
Btw, all left wing parties including the biggest right wing are pro legalisation of cannabis.
petfles a dit:
I have had many experiences in my life that would proof that, but as many that would proof otherwise. Trust is not the issue, hardheadedness is. If all christians would decide not to vote anymore from now on, that would be s solution as well I guess but it would be even more difficult than penetrate the hardheadedness.
Yesterday i was watching Jesus Camp
Yea I saw that also, shocking indeed. Even more so when you realize people like that participate in court jury and all.
I think its a lot worse in the US in a way that they have much more orthodox communities going on like Staphorst in Holland for example.
Last point really is that I dont want to bash christianity or christians but they make it so damn hard. And I do understand christianity and christians, dont get that wrong. I live in the town with most varieties of different christian movements of all in Holland. And we are even the homebase of the association against cursing
So I was raised with Jesus so to speak, went to christian based schools till I was 16. I have been visiting churches while I was seeking answers till I was 21, about the time I had my first encounter with the sacred mushrooms My folks arent christian thank God, but a lot of my friends where. I say where because they don't really have interest in someone who doesnt believe in Jesus but walks a different spiritual parh. That is, if psychedelic plants are involved. Makes me sad to think that those former friends, actually help model our society into a less tolerate place for my kind of people because of their political choices. . And I think my kind of people, the kind people you find here, are among the most peaceful people you can find on the entire plantet. The downside is that they are often too passive to stand up for their fucking birthright and thats why I feel the need to keep pummeling these points into peoples consiousness every now and then
Still it would be much more rewarding maybe to try to get some constructive ideas out here on how we could communicate our points across and keep them listening long enough to be able to do just that.
I guess inviting them home and providing a heroic dose of mushrooms would be out of the question
PS: I wonder how Forest is and how his christmas went !
HeartCore a dit:
Have mercy with those people? Why have mercy with someone who makes a conscious choice to remain ignorant and as a direct effect of that, chooses a certain political party that directly influences the choices I can make regarding my lifestyle?
Often not intelligent, sure, but often they are...
I dont get my point across it seems... Everybody is upset whenever the word sharia comes in the media. We don't want that because its barbaric. We say away with it because its not scientifically founded but based on religion and we want to have religion and state seperated. In fact, we are proud that this is the case in our country Right? (hint: pan head in vertical directions
Welll I have news, there is a western version of sharia in place that effects virtually all users of hallucinogens on the planet. It makes perfect sense once you see this. In the US, this is certainly the case, your life will be ruined very effectively by the government when you break drug laws.
In Holland, the situation is a little better, thats a fact but its also true that both CDA and CU, both christian parties, want a stricter drugpolicy, more specifically, related to cannabis. Well the fact of the matter is that keeping cannabis illegal is scientifically unfounded and socially immoral hence druglaws equals some sort of sharia. And sharia are laws based on a conscious choice to remain ignorant
Mercy my fucking ass....
Btw, all left wing parties including the biggest right wing are pro legalisation of cannabis.
petfles a dit:
I have had many experiences in my life that would proof that, but as many that would proof otherwise. Trust is not the issue, hardheadedness is. If all christians would decide not to vote anymore from now on, that would be s solution as well I guess but it would be even more difficult than penetrate the hardheadedness.
[quote:223d2eit]Yesterday i was watching Jesus Camp
Yea I saw that also, shocking indeed. Even more so when you realize people like that participate in court jury and all.
I think its a lot worse in the US in a way that they have much more orthodox communities going on like Staphorst in Holland for example.
Last point really is that I dont want to bash christianity or christians but they make it so damn hard. And I do understand christianity and christians, dont get that wrong. I live in the town with most varieties of different christian movements of all in Holland. And we are even the homebase of the association against cursing
So I was raised with Jesus so to speak, went to christian based schools till I was 16. I have been visiting churches while I was seeking answers till I was 21, about the time I had my first encounter with the sacred mushrooms My folks arent christian thank God, but a lot of my friends where. I say where because they don't really have interest in someone who doesnt believe in Jesus but walks a different spiritual parh. That is, if psychedelic plants are involved. Makes me sad to think that those former friends, actually help model our society into a less tolerate place for my kind of people because of their political choices. . And I think my kind of people, the kind people you find here, are among the most peaceful people you can find on the entire plantet. The downside is that they are often too passive to stand up for their fucking birthright and thats why I feel the need to keep pummeling these points into peoples consiousness every now and then
Still it would be much more rewarding maybe to try to get some constructive ideas out here on how we could communicate our points across and keep them listening long enough to be able to do just that.
I guess inviting them home and providing a heroic dose of mushrooms would be out of the question
PS: I wonder how Forest is and how his christmas went ![/quote:223d2eit]
Completely and Utterly offtopic but DUDE YOU LIVE IN VEENENDAAL!?
I lived there until 3 months ago Oo
