Is the LHC sabotaging itself from the future?

[spice]

That's just it; It's non-linear thought, Jesus. You can't impose the rigor of linear thinking on top of quantum physics, this is why Newtons observations and assumptions only work on the things at our scale; the macroverse we live in, and why Einstein was needed to move us into the future.

I personally think that the problem is in our minds.


I think our consciousness is not collectively ready for what we will learn, ultimately, from all this, and it is our subconscious/collective unconscious which is sabotaging us.

NOT God, or time travel........us.


This makes a lot more sense to me. If you are determined to use logic, then apply your crowbar here.

 

[spice]

Seriously.


You have people starving to death on earth, but let's build super-colliders and theorize on things we don't understand.

Nevermind the important problems to be solved, like why we're always tryng to subvert each other, as nations.....or kill each other, as individuals, for TVs, cars, and money.......

Why we exploit each other ruthlessly, why we cheat and lie, why we don't care about each others destinies.....

Why would we presume to tell each other what we should be putting in our bodies, and yes, our minds....


Why strive to learn so much, when we need to get this shitty diaper off ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
:axe:

 

[IJesusChrist]

Gahd damnit. Spice, I would have no problem in taking this stuff as fact, I am just as curious as the next guy, and I think that if the quantum world is indeed that weird, I'm intrigued by it. But by everything I've been shown (and especially the beginnings of quantum mechanics) I see large flaws. I'm not going to argue this anymore because I cannot prove it wrong obviously. If I could, I wouldn't be on here trying to persuade just you guys. I don't have the math background, nor physics to propose a mathematical foundation of WHY it's not correct... yet.

And hell yes, so... we find a higgs boson. Then what? ... Then hunger is gone? Wars are over?

Oh.. Nope.

"Nope still got those. BUT WE UNDERSTAND GRAVITY (kinda.. sorta) AND THE BIG BANG IS MAKING SOME SENSE!!"

"So... now what?"

"Oh shit we should really get going on the energy crisis."

 

[st.bot.32]

At least we are all debating this because we all actually give a shit. That says a lot right there.

IJC, seriously, if you have ideas and the enthusiasm and the energy, you should go into physics, refine your ideas and maybe someday you'll have a breakthrough that adds to the general knowledge of humanity.

Anyway, two words: General Research.

The beauty of general research is that what seems irrelevant today may be important tomorrow. What if the LHC does lead to a breakthrough in the energy crisis? If we are to find new sources of energy, it will be in the realm of quantum physics. Everything is connected to everything else. Chemistry doesn't live confined in a box unto itself. Neither does medicine, nor biology, nor physics. Hence the importance of increasing our general understanding of everything. It's long-term thinking. General research leads to major discoveries. Think of cancer research. Some people whine and complain about scientists spending all this money on tinkering with genetics, yet if the many varieties of cancer are to ever to be cured, it will be when we have a way of finding specific types of mutated rogue cells and either fixing them or killing them. Long-term thinking, not short-term, feel-good solutions. Leave that to the scientists working at corporate labs finding better ways of leeching oil from the ground or better chemicals to refine trees into paper products or improving drugs that mask symptom x.

And please, the LHC is chump change--and come on this money doesn't all of it just disappear into an invisible box never to come out again, a good chunk of it goes to tradesmen, laborers, scientists, researchers etc etc who will be working somewhere anyway and feeding their families... and then they get taxed on it which goes into society, or they spend it (or perhaps even donate some of it as the educated often do) and then it goes straight back into the economy or wherever else.

The problems of the starving on this planet can't be fixed with money anyway. The food is already more than enough there. The money and resources are already there. Try sending food and resources to the starving and watch the military take it all away. Buy some chocolate, buy some clothes, buy a computer, help corporations exploit the poor. Refuse to buy those products, the poor lose their measly jobs and starve. The problem on this planet is ignorant, power-hungry people and lazy people, exportation of locally needed resources, and far, far too much waste. The solutions are complex. Shall we feed the North Korean masses who are living on bits of rice per day? If we tried to liberate North Korea would things change overnight? Of course not, because the starving masses have been brainwashed into worshiping their government and will fight and die for it while Kim Jong-Il laughs it up and drinks his favorite bottle of Hennesy (of which he is a renowned fan). Complex problems. I do believe we as human have the capability of bettering ourselves and that we might even do just that, it's what allows me to get out of bed in the morning and face the day.

 

[IJesusChrist]

yeah. I GUESS. :wink:

 

[spice]

st. bot- you said:

"The beauty of general research is that what seems irrelevant today may be important tomorrow"

I agree totally, but that really is a side-stepping of my point.

What about fixing things which are relevant, yet extremely problematic , such as world hunger?

World hunger is a phenomenon rooted in our political systems, our economic systems, and in our COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUS minds......the only reason it exists is because there are too many people that do not have to endure it, or see the consequences of it, as policy.

You ask also; "what if it leads to a breakthrough in the energy crisis"?

My answer: IT WOULD NOT MATTER.

Because you would then have the phenomenon of Exxon reproduce itself. You'd immediately have a clique of people laying plans to patent the process, which makes it a proprietary energy source. For those who do not understand what I mean by this, I mean that it would not become the property of the human race, as it should be, but merely another device to enrich the few at the expense of the masses.

THIS IS WHAT I MEAN. The problem, therefore, exists in our system of economics and politics.

SO, what are the forces that are keeping the status quo static?

Mainly, it's tradition and guilt, with a generous dash of military-based extortion to back it up.

 

[VapourTrail]

That there are poor people still could be the answer to any question or the argument against any action.

Why are you posting in the forums, people are starving!

Why did you microwave that! With the energy saved, you could have bought someone in Africa rice!

Why are you wearing that suit to work! If you turned up naked, the money saved could buy someone a house!

Here is the truth - whenever countries like the USA, Canada, the UK, etc, etc interfere with countries worse off we always end up giving a metric shit tonne of money to a corrupt government that uses the money to further suppress their people.

We make things worse far more often than we make things better.

YOU still go to your job, wearing whatever is appropriate for your position at that time - if you are a lawyer, you are turning up in a suit regardless of how many African families you could have fed with the money because that job is how you feed YOUR family.

The scientists are going to go to their jobs too. Who knows where these discoveries could go?

Although it may be frustrating to see all that is wrong with the world, stopping even a few thousand scientists working on their area of expertise, remember, they probably are not qualified in an area of research that could feed people anyway will not fix it.

Other scientists may be able to build on their completed research and that research may be able to help the places that are behind us currently.

 

[spice]

How to combat tradition ?

Well, tradition is an abstraction, and can't be attacked directly.

But the church is a nice place to start.

You want to poiunt a finger at some scare-mongerers? Ask Galileo, he'll tell you.....


Politics is next......the system of two-party representation is doomed. How can you split 400 million opinions into an either/or dialogue?

Jesus, some of these concepts are actually simple, and I'm not talking physics here, either.

It's more a matter of guts, and determination.


Once everyone figures that out, then, things may get interesting.

 

[spice]

vaportrail- you utterly miss my point.

walk befor you run :roll:

 

[spice]

.....and yes, you could also answer any question with ;

GREEN EGGS AND HAM

but let's not stray too far into fantasy. If you cannot see, a million candles will not help

 

[VapourTrail]

.....and yes, you could also answer any question with ;

GREEN EGGS AND HAM

but let's not stray too far into fantasy. If you cannot see, a million candles will not help

I continued on your note, I felt it was unfair, if you think mine was also I mirror you exactly.

I do not deny that the current system is a bastardised mess. I deny that they should stop because of it.

 

[st.bot.32]

Nice posts Spice, I appreciate you see this as not a simple issue and there are shades of gray in the black and white.

The human race needs a lot of changes, I agree that new forms of energy will be bastardized by greedy corporations, but at this point, I'm rooting for any source of cleaner energy, not because I like them corporations, but for the good of the planet. Realistically, humans aren't going to give up their TVs and Ipods anytime soon. If Exxon can find a clean way of producing energy, they may be bastards, but at least they won't be slicing and dicing the environment.

Bringing down or reigning in the corporate government is going to take a long time and a substantial change in awareness on the part of the human race. The system as it exists is a gigantic machine, perpetuating from one generation to the next, and outside of the machine a large percentage of the population actively support it. Change has to come slowly, from within.

The only way to make corporations go green is to make it commercially viable. They have to see dollar signs. This is already starting to happen in a way.. the demand from society to use recycled and biodegradable materials, corporations brag about these things because to them it's advertising (whether they really follow proper standards or not of course, yeah that's another issue). We all use mass-produced products, we rely on corporations, the situation we are in right now is like living in a bizarre symbiosis with a destructive wild beast that at least some of us are trying to tame.

And yes, we live in a military culture. It's genuinely frightening to see the resurgence of rabid nationalism with our generation. I guess for me when I say the LHC is 'chump change' I mean compared to the untold billions our countries pump into their war machines. You can spend 400 billion a year to make new weapons to kill and send goons overseas to shoot other human beings, but take a few billion to throw into.. try this.. health care for the average American who can barely pay rent nevermind $1000's per year for insurance and suddenly you're a rabid leftie commie pinko traitor.

Or here in Canada, Vancouver.. where it's acceptable to plunge a city into half a century of debt to pay for the Olympics, meanwhile we'll forcibly 'clean up' the streets, abuse the homeless, etc.

Ok enough ranting on a Monday morning.

 

[IJesusChrist]

if we start argueing about the purpose of research we are fundamentally never going to help anything.

Spice, yeah, sure, there is that group of business men just waiting for a breakthrough, just waiting to fill the patents, and take it for themselves.

SO WHAT?

 

[spice]

No.


It isn't 'a group of businessmen waiting to capitalize on a discovery'

That is NOT what I am talking about here, man. Not at all.


I am saying that having lofty aspirations and goals are great notions, but you know what ?

Being able to feed yourself, wipe your ass, and care about each other are greater issues than the Higgs boson.


Do you see now ?

 

[spice]

that attitude is exceptionally defeatist, despairing, and a scream for help at the same time.

Hope you understand that.

 

[spice]

"Cannabis activist Jack Herer has researched DuPont and in his 1985 book The Emperor Wears No Clothes, Herer concluded DuPont played a large role in the criminalization of cannabis. In 1938, DuPont patented the processes for creating plastics from coal and oil and a new process for creating paper from wood pulp. If hemp had been largely exploited, Herer believes it would have likely been used to make paper and plastic (nylon), and may have hurt DuPont's profits. Andrew Mellon of the Mellon Bank was DuPont's chief financial backer and was also the Secretary of the Treasury under the Hoover administration. Mellon appointed Harry J. Anslinger, who later became his nephew-in-law, as the head of the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs (FBNDD) and the Federal Bureau of Narcotics (FBN), where Anslinger stayed until 1962."


You are truly, and utterly, playing in the kiddie pool if you cannot see the reason why industry and commercialization should not be entrusted to ANY kind of political power. What's that? You didn't see the 'free energy' that may one day be the result of CERNs discovery as a political issue? Look again, it is.

The above example I cited is just ONE OF MANY instances where organized industry has sought to subvert beneficial discoveries that would be good for EVERYONE to protect the profit margin.

:butthead:

 

[VapourTrail]

Do not talk about organised industry like you are above it.

You are its enabler.

 

[ochho]

Do not talk about organised industry like you are above it.

You are its enabler.

And what the heck does that mean?

We were born in a capitalist system. Organised industry was there before us, and will probably still be there after we're gone. Maybe he's not "above" it, but his control over it as an individual is surely very minimal. And as far as being it's "enabler" goes, I'm not sure what you mean, but again, we do not have much choice.

The time of revolutions is over. As St.Bot.32 said, change has to come from within, and this kind of change takes ages. It takes the general population to see that change is needed. And I believe this kind of knowledge comes from information, and education. Hence why I think the internet is one of the best things happening to the world today. Most of what I know comes from the internet, and I'm sure there's thousands like me. Yes, education comes into play also, and parenting too.

Well, anyway, my 2 cents.

 

[spice]

I am its enabler?

You truly are out of your element here.


Come back when you're out of sand to hide your head in.

 

[spice]

I used to go around trying to wake people up here in 'meatspace', until I ran into a few thousand of them with the mentality I am ruunning into here;

'Oh, that's how it is'

'Oh, that's how it will always be'

'Gotta go along to get along'

and on and on.....


It made me realize something.


We may all look similar and adhere to similar ways of living, but inside the mind, we are all very different. Most of us are VERY timid, unoriginal mice, when you get RIGHT DOWN TO IT.

It takes GUTS to realize EVERYTHING your mama and daddy thought, and passed on to you, was wrong.


It takes GUTS to contemplate something as painful as a complete cultural teardown/rebuild.....and it takes a LOT of guts to take on the capitalist system, even in a philosophical discussion......

Many times, I would be discussing things of this nature, and usually, after a LOT of talking, 99.9% + of everyone didn't want to contemplate such wrenching change and the destruction of such iconic notions as 'the free market will fix everything'
because at the bottom of their defensive little well was this;


'Well, what good does it do to realize these things? What do you expect me to do about it?'

And therein lies the rub;

My answerr to that, invariably, was the same then as it is now;

You don't have to DO anything. That, right there, is a facet of the systematic brainwashing we've all been subjected to as part of our 'Westernized-Capitalistic-EgoPLUS' worldview, thrust upon us from age 5 by this system, the thought that 'you must act on novel information, lest someone else PATENT IT AND MAKE A LOT OF MONEY BEFORE YOU CAN.

Knowledge must increase in the collective consciousness of the species before change can come, and then it will come in the form of GROWTH, not upheaval.


And by the way, I never said it ( CERN research) should be stopped, so at least two of you can quit twisting my words.

I said, and say again....

Our priorities as a species are not in line.


I can't really break it down much simpler.