Insight into non-being from enthogens - stuns me!

[Proteus]

On the other hand for people like me: I want to participate in society. I like being around people, learning about people. I like to occasionally set aside a weekend to have a life-enriching experience that I hope will help me become a happier and more empathetic human being. Sometimes I like to get up and observe/interact with society while in the psychedelic state..!

A lot of people who have spent time in seclusion to practice do come back. Before they go they can't find satisfaction in normal wordly life so do something like 'renounce it' to focus on inner contemplation. If that works out and they're not natural born hermits it'll reach a conclusion where they'll feel the urge to return. Afterwards they can lead full lives but mix it with their meditation. Best of both worlds, or rather, they're integrating both worlds.

 

[maxfreakout]

Hmm, well they're certainly powerful and rapid.

more specifically they are 'powerful and rapid' (and reliably repeatable) means of accessing intense transcendental states of consciousness.

ie if you take a big dose of LSD, and a few hours later you are *guaranteed* to be having a powerfully intense magical experience. There is no other method of altering consciousness which has anywhere near the same ease of use, reliability and repeatability than taking drugs.

I'm wary of your suggestion because it seems to me that just about everyone using a particular system/path, drugs involved or not, has a tendency to see themselves as more enlightened than others

The issue here is not who is 'more enlightened' than who, rather the important point is that only the entheogen-users are able to become aquainted with the intense altered-states of consciousness - only the entheogen religion actually involves having religious experiences. People who do not use drugs very rarely, if ever, experience the kind of mind-blowing transcendental cognitive dynamics which are totally standard and commonplace for people who take entheogens, and which are at the core of mythic symbolism and mystical/religious scriptures

using a different system/path because their way is the better or true way.

Psychedelics are not a 'system' OR a 'path', they are a TOOL (or a technique) for accessing the kinds of altered states of consciousness that are central to mysticism/religion/spirituality/myth

The alternative, drug-free techniques (such as meditating or doing yoga) fall vastly behind entheogens in terms of their efficacy at altering consciousness, this is why people who only practise drug-free practises, without taking drugs, never experience these states

Also bare in mind that the religious aren't for the most part looking for big mystical/religious experiences to begin with (unless such experiences are placed well within their comfort zone).

It all depends on what you mean here ^ by "the religious".

If religious/spiritual people never take drugs, then they are limited to a version of religion/spirituality that does NOT involve religious/spiritual experience. This is a crippled, half-formed gross misunderstanding of what *true* (higher-level, esoteric) religious insight is all about. The only 'true' religion, is entheogenic religion, because this is the only kind of religion that includes religious experience. Religious experience is the core essence of esoteric religion

So if you are 'looking for' genuine transcendental religious insight, you are equivalently looking for transcendental religious experiences, such as those that are easily and reliably triggered by taking entheogens, and not really available by any other means

Mostly people look to religion for safety from the big bad dark unknown, perhaps a reassuring kind of parental guidance that they miss from childhood, an escape from feelings of isolatation, loneliness, vulnerability, etc. by joining a community of people that will accept them as part of the group identity. Stuff like that.

the kind of shallow, pointless religion you describe here ^ is not anything to do with the core esoteric religious insights, which are FAR deeper and more interesting than merely trying to find "safety from the big bad dark unknown"

true (entheogenic) religion is more about facing the 'big bad dark unknown' head-on and making peace with it, rather than trying to hide from it (which is what illegitimate drug-free approaches succeed in doing)

People who aren't interested in religion for that and want to storm the gates of heaven through meditation/yoga will do that instead.

they wont 'storm the gates of heaven' in any genuine sense without taking entheogens - heaven and hell is the difference between a good trip and a bad trip

BTW I can think of reasons not to overlook meditation and yoga/qigong if you're a Psychonaut too:-

They can significantly improve the health of mind and body as well as build up strong subtle energy (qi/prana). If you're in good shape you can make your way through the doors of perception without getting so exhausted or roughed up.

The mental training of meditation helps in being able to relax, even if things are scary/difficult. The more relaxed and free of mental anguish you are the more psychadelics can flow.

Absolutely there may be all kinds of benefits to other spiritual techniques, but the point is these techniques should not be used exclusively, without also taking entheogens, if you really desire to get to the core of religious/mystical insight

Well...its true that enlightenment can be viewed as some unobtainable thing that's always out of reach.

this ^ statement can be interpreted on 2 distinct levels, the exoteric unenlightened level, and the esoteric enlightened level

The enlightened, entheogenic mystic understands it as a reference to the timeless, ultimate, ineffable mindlowing transcendental nature of the peak religious/mystical experience

the unenlightened drug-free spiritualist understands it as a reference to the face that the transcendental experience is inaccessible to him in the present (in contrast to the entheogenist, who has these experiences on-tap whenever he wants)

I can sense that I'm one with the holographic multiverse, that every thought, movement and instant of consciousness is the entirety of existence moving me and me moving it. I can feel this, touch it, know it. That's great but what next?

The naturalest thing to do is to try to bring some of that back into the mundane world around you - your relationships with others, your way of life, your creative work, your appreciation of life in general. That is an endless process because creation & destruction are endless even if we feel one with the whole of eternity.

What exactly do you mean by 'bringing back' the transcendent insights 'into the mundane world around you'? how do you do this??
[/quote]

 

[st.bot.32]

A lot of people who have spent time in seclusion to practice do come back. Before they go they can't find satisfaction in normal wordly life so do something like 'renounce it' to focus on inner contemplation.

Fair enough, and I do respect that. Periods of isolation and deep introspection are essential in getting to know yourself. They're also important if you engage in any serious art practice. I believe in getting to know your mind/body fully and what it can do and the places you can go while you are sober.

The thoughts I'm reaching at in my post is more along these lines..

When entering the psychedelic state, I am taken from my current place in society, and thrust into that state of consciousness, as I am today, in the here and now. There is no escaping from the experience if I change my mind. I'm in that state as I brush my teeth, play an instrument, go for a walk, try to read a book, view media, interact with other people, or close my eyes, etc. I see my internal self projected onto the external reality around me, and being held in this state while doing different things can bring out a lot of fascinating thought patterns, personal insights and ideas. That's the beauty and the power of it.

In my mind, meditation is not a replacement for psychedelics, conversely psychedelics are not a replacement for meditation. (Attempting to combine the two however== )

 

[Proteus]

more specifically they are 'powerful and rapid' (and reliably repeatable) means of accessing intense transcendental states of consciousness.

ie if you take a big dose of LSD, and a few hours later you are *guaranteed* to be having a powerfully intense magical experience. There is no other method of altering consciousness which has anywhere near the same ease of use, reliability and repeatability than taking drugs.

That's very true. Even if the intense magical experience is strongly rejected because it shows you things you'd never want to see, if you could've even imagined they were possible to begin with, its still an intense magical experience. All you have to do is take the dose and 'things' will come.

The issue here is not who is 'more enlightened' than who, rather the important point is that only the entheogen-users are able to become aquainted with the intense altered-states of consciousness - only the entheogen religion actually involves having religious experiences. People who do not use drugs very rarely, if ever, experience the kind of mind-blowing transcendental cognitive dynamics which are totally standard and commonplace for people who take entheogens, and which are at the core of mythic symbolism and mystical/religious scriptures

Entheogen users do have easy access but what's this stuff about "only the entheogen religion actually involves having religious experiences?" Thats not true for me!

I was having altered-states of consciousness and religious experiences as a child long before I'd come across entheogens. One of them was so intense the psychic energy became like a dynamo that I can trigger through autosuggestion to drive me extremely hard whenever I need it. It can also quickly send me into an fiery ecstatic trance if I get a little privacy to listen to music I like.

Psychedelics are not a 'system' OR a 'path', they are a TOOL (or a technique) for accessing the kinds of altered states of consciousness that are central to mysticism/religion/spirituality/myth

Ok, but...I'm confused. Entheogens are tools, but does this make a difference to the idea of people having a system/path?

I see it that we all use the tools available to us in a systematic way according to a narrative path that our minds creatively produce in order to give some sense of explanatory meaning and intention in what we do. Meditation is a tool. Yoga is a tool. Entheogens are a tool. They're all used to access altered states of consciousness amongst other things.

Whether the system/path is strictly or loosely defined it makes sense to me to think of people each having their systemic mind and narrative path.

The alternative, drug-free techniques (such as meditating or doing yoga) fall vastly behind entheogens in terms of their efficacy at altering consciousness, this is why people who only practise drug-free practises, without taking drugs, never experience these states

Drug-free practices are much less potent in bringing about signficant altered states of consciousness. I definately agree with that. However, regular use of drug-free practices can result in changes at least as powerful in their own way. They can and I know they can because I have experienced exactly that, many times over. I didn't imagine such things - they happened! What's more some altered states of consciousness would be very difficult to impossible for entheogen-only access because the brain state will not be anything like psychadelic brain state.

It all depends on what you mean here ^ by "the religious".

If religious/spiritual people never take drugs, then they are limited to a version of religion/spirituality that does NOT involve religious/spiritual experience. This is a crippled, half-formed gross misunderstanding of what *true* (higher-level, esoteric) religious insight is all about. The only 'true' religion, is entheogenic religion, because this is the only kind of religion that includes religious experience. Religious experience is the core essence of esoteric religion

So if you are 'looking for' genuine transcendental religious insight, you are equivalently looking for transcendental religious experiences, such as those that are easily and reliably triggered by taking entheogens, and not really available by any other means.

* nods * My point was for the most part religious people aren't looking for genuine transcendental religious insight because otherwise they'd be going for that instead. Mystical/magical inclinded people do and they are commonly interested in entheogens as sacraments that could help them with that (if they know of them).

the kind of shallow, pointless religion you describe here ^ is not anything to do with the core esoteric religious insights, which are FAR deeper and more interesting than merely trying to find "safety from the big bad dark unknown"

true (entheogenic) religion is more about facing the 'big bad dark unknown' head-on and making peace with it, rather than trying to hide from it (which is what illegitimate drug-free approaches succeed in doing)

I don't think religion like that is pointless, its just that it serves different purposes than you'd have any use for. Different purposes to mine too. I think they're a curse - there's a lot of malevolence too. But I see it like that because I'm me. I want to rip down all the veils and I'm not interested in the rest. I don't really understand why I'm like that and others are different but I'm not going to insist too hard that my way is the right and only way.

Have to bring this up again: Non-entheogenic religion/spirituality can involve highly esoteric experiences. As potent & expansive as entheogens are I think you are giving them a singular significance and too easily dismiss drug-free methods and the kind of people who might use them as mystical/spiritual tools.

From my perspective there is so much to them, such a great deal, that its almost impossible for me to conceive of how the esoteric experience could retain its richness if entheogens were considered the core in leui of also including drug-free tools. They have their own unique capacities.

Absolutely there may be all kinds of benefits to other spiritual techniques, but the point is these techniques should not be used exclusively, without also taking entheogens, if you really desire to get to the core of religious/mystical insight

* nods *

If I ever ended up spending months meditating alone again and had enough LSD or mushrooms to last me I suspect the process of ego/personality dissolving would be much much quicker.

The enlightened, entheogenic mystic understands it as a reference to the timeless, ultimate, ineffable mindlowing transcendental nature of the peak religious/mystical experience

the unenlightened drug-free spiritualist understands it as a reference to the face that the transcendental experience is inaccessible to him in the present (in contrast to the entheogenist, who has these experiences on-tap whenever he wants)

Well, drug-free spiritualists can have quite a lot of things on tap too because of what they trained for. For instance, I often have ecstatic bliss on tap, dream trance on tap, I can slip into immersive non-dual mind naturally sometimes and others with a sufficient trigger. This is all without drugs.

What exactly do you mean by 'bringing back' the transcendent insights 'into the mundane world around you'? how do you do this??

That probably sounded more exotic than it is. What I meant was no different to being 'inspired'. Everyone who has various transcendental insights is coloured by them and that comes through in anatural way. Its inevitable, even if it often fails because what is being brought across can sometimes be so alien that it can't take roots in everyday personality or the culture around you so sinks back into the subconscious.

The things you can do with such inspiration are endless.

 

[st.bot.32]

What's more some altered states of consciousness would be very difficult to impossible for entheogen-only access because the brain state will not be anything like psychadelic brain state

brilliant, like for example (well, my favorite conscious states that cannot be accessed on psychedelics): hypnogogia, hypnopompia, threshold wakeness. Fascinating and irreplaceable, they just are what they are.

 

[bliksem]

Many have concluded that entheogens are tools. Maybe next step is to categorize each tool, and what whe can do with them.