I think I've learned to trip in meditation

[FrigginJoe]

My entheogen usage history is a very limitted one, so I can't say drugs did anything to my brain.
I've gotten so that I can put myself into a relaxed half-sleep state and then just let myself go. I try to recall that feeling salvia puts me in, or better yet that "letting go" mentality. Damn, how the heck to describe HOW I go about it.. nm that.
I cannot describe what I'm calling "meditiation" as anything better than just realxing and "falling into it."

Last night's meditation had me go "into it" feeling like I was weightless, and my head/mind was on some rail that shot me forward and outware (out to whereever, I don't know, didn't care). This was accompanied by a low electrical buzzing sound that I could hear and feel and visuals or patterns and nonsensical objects, morphing and changing (I do this on a light SD trip) the feeling of possibly sentient "things" all about me.
This never lasts long. A distraction (last night, my gf) takes me out of it, or I just lose it.
I would liken a lot of it to a very fragile DMT trip. As long as I stay 'in the zone' it's NOT lacking for vividness and impossibility, it's just that I'm not stuck in it, it goes away with the slightest distraction.

It's quite amazing when I can make it happen, actually.
My real question in all this, is, do any of you find meditation can take you into a world nearly as vivid as that induced by psychedilcs? Don't get me wrong, you can't substitute a chemical putting you 'there' and keeping you in it, but I've become surprised at and fond of just where you can put your own mind via meditation.
In case you doubt the potential of meditation, just keep in mind we work against our mind going off like that, and just how vivid dreams can get. Going psychedlic with meditation alone is just not as likely and not as solid an experience.

 

[ararat]

I had such an experience once too. actually the second time I tried to meditate.
unfortunatly I wasn't able to repeat this the same with dancing into trance...

I think we should have a category for meditation. some people already said that we are too drug-oriented, and I tend to agree.

 

[user_1919]

I am not particularly fond of meditation. Meditation, in my eyes, is only good for the ethics that you need with your plant teacher. Learning to stay calm and just observe is a very fundamental 'rule' that one must use to get though a heavy psychedelic experience.

"My entheogen usage history is a very limitted one, so I can't say drugs did anything to my brain. "

You talk as if ethenogens would have a negative effect on ones brain. This is not true. There is no brain damage, period. Terence always talks about a 'drug' selection. If tribes all over the world have been using them for thousands of years, than it can't be all that bad for ones body, because people are not dieing because of the use. But you never know what the long term effects of some drugs like MDMA, LSD, or other synthetic drugs are, because they only have been around in the past 100 years. So if you stick to the natural 'drugs' than its pretty safe for your body.

I guess it can only be clear to the other person if ones intent is specified. I have no clue what your goal is when you use psychedelics(or meditate). It could just be to get high, but when you use them in a respectable mannor, the effects and revelations are much more deep and profound. I recommond you have a deep psychedelic experience on Psilocybin Mushrooms( around 5 grams dried). This will show you the difference between meditation and the psychedelic experience. You would not believe how much you learn about yourself when your ego dies. Everyone is culturally conditioned, and you can't even begin to ask questions in this 'normal' state until you have cleared your 'operating system'.

PEACE

 

[lol*fan]

I excercise meditation, but not yet disciplined enough. I want to learn good visualisation, lucid dreaming and astral projection. I think it would be well worth the effort and bring about a permanent change in my state of consciousness, as I would develop my psychic abilities.

btw The electrical buzz is something often mentioned in literature describing the process of astral projection

 

[lol*fan]

O, regarding your question,

My real question in all this, is, do any of you find meditation can take you into a world nearly as vivid as that induced by psychedilcs?

Some people have Out of Body Experiences (a.k.a. astral projection) induced by psychedelics. The result is the same I guess: your astral body leaving your physical body, wandering into the spirit world.

As for the states of consciousness entered through magic mushrooms or ayahuasca, I guess you can have similar experiences through meditation, but I guess 'similar' in the way the effects of some psychedelics might be called similar, yet they're different from each other.

O well, anyway, can't really answer your question because I don't know that much about meditation, but I think meditation is a powerful skill to master. Yet, ego death, as 1919 mentions... I don't know if it can be induced by meditation... some yogi's in Asia did pretty amazing things didn't they? But I guess they didn't 'just' meditate, but also used sensory deprivation by locking themselves up in a dark cave and I don't know what other techniques they use... anyway, well, yeah, uhm. There's a lot to say on the subject, so I'll shut up now, since I don't pretend to know how it all works.

 

[lol*fan]

By the way, it would be good to have some people that are into psychedelics AND into astral projection... I've read some good books on astral projection, but on the subject of 'drugs' all they had to say was "It's better to astral project without the use of drugs. You don't need drugs." Almost, although they're so open minded, as if they're saying: Drugs are bad, mmm'kay?

So, I would love to read a comparison on astral projection and the psychedelic experience by a writer who's experienced in both fields. I might write that book myself some day.

 

[Guest]

meditation is something one will develop during all his life, and the most important reward, IMHO, is that everything that you will learn is not temporarily available, like in psychedelics, but will be forever.
i agree with misery: a category for meditation on this forum would broad our knowledge. sensory deprivation seems very interesting to me, but the money that one needs to start such a DIY project and the "rareness" (i doubt that this word exists, but i think you got the point) of available deprivation tanks, would make this category almost empty. but meditation is free and was perhaps the first way that man found to search deep inside, wandering what everything was.

 

[FrigginJoe]

"You talk as if ethenogens would have a negative effect on ones brain. This is not true. There is no brain damage, period."

No, I actually meant to address that because I was half expecting someone speculating that's the result of salvia, dmt, whatever. I don't feel those "do" anything to my brain, as in rewiring or harm. If anything I can get a feel of the familiarity of those space, more like they have the potential to teach me rather then mess me up, hence my means of finding a similar space in meditation. I don't know of any solid evidence psychedelics do harm to a person's brain.

I know McKenna never appeared to be fond of meditation, and I certainly can't compare meditation, especially in a non-ideal environment, with the likes of the solid, psychopharmacological effect psychedilcs bestow upon your mind, I am in fact seeing not some added spirituality or rite in psychdelics, but that my mind can take me somewhere almost as vivid and random ...just not as throroughly.

 

[user_1919]

Ok good, you are not one that thinks 'drugs' will screw you up, and that you should take the safer route that doesn't involve 'drugs'.

lol*fan: I believe astral projection to be the psychedelic experience. Though your mind, you are be projected into a realm very foriegn. By exploring ones mind, you are exploring the universe. I believe this whole universe to just be a thought and does not exist in the physical sense, but rather it is just a mental projection.

I believe all these route that people talk about; sensory deprivation, meditation, psychedelics, and anything else that changes one concsiousness; is just ways to getting to the same place. The thing about them is some take longer than others. This is why I think the psychedelic experience is vital. It doesn't take 40 years of sitting on a rock to get there, rather it take 30 minutes after injesting some Psilocybin Mushrooms. Which ever route one takes, it's going to lead you to the same place. It is your choice if you want to take the long route. But one thing I do believe that is positive that comes out of meditation is the wisdom one gains on the way to achieveing that state. This lacks with the psychedelic experience, and why sometimes it can be abused. Some individuals see it as something to get high off, so they inbark on the voyage, but then those same people would never meditate for 40 years because they don't have the same intent. Meditation narrows the people, where as psychedelic appeal to larger crowds, which is sad, because they are truly teacher plants, and shouldn't be used to get high off. They have great potential when used correctly.

PEACE & LOVE

 

[HeartCore]

My real question in all this, is, do any of you find meditation can take you into a world nearly as vivid as that induced by psychedilcs? Don't get me wrong, you can't substitute a chemical putting you 'there' and keeping you in it, but I've become surprised at and fond of just where you can put your own mind via meditation.

I have experience with getting visuals by meditating, but very mild. This was during a period in my life when I lived literally in Eden (Amazing farm house in the middle of nowhere in France), all by myself with a very successful mushroom grow going on. Every night when I did some kind of meditation, I had vivid visuals, not comparable with mushroom visuals, less bright but also a different nature. Moving scenes from real life, sometimes people I knew, sometimes strangers, never in some kind of context but as if I was looking through a window to folks which weren't aware of me.

It wasn't a big deal for me as in wondering what that was since this was a period where I tripped about twice a week so I guess all that stimulation of my brain, made me more susceptible to those visuals.


I got back in the Netherlands since then and somehow I left that experience in France. It's probably to do with more hectic life here, when I was there, it was like a six months long shamanic vacation for me where I didn't have any worries at all, related to surviving financially etc..

So I agree with you, in my experience it is indeed possible to induce trip like states with meditation practice. But I also fully agree that you can't replace a chemical; I am sure it's is impossible to get 'the full blown psilocybin experience', purely by will and I believe the same thing goes for DMT, regardless of the fact that we all have DMT natural in the body.


Love & peace
HC

 

[Brugmansia]

meditation is something one will develop during all his life, and the most important reward, IMHO, is that everything that you will learn is not temporarily available, like in psychedelics, but will be forever.

I'd have to disagree. After years of psychedelic use, there's definitely an altered state of mind you wake up with and go to bed with. What you have learned from it, still remains in your mind and is available anytime. Otherwise we only could share thoughts on here while tripping.

You even tend to look at the world with your third eye. Turn on the TV watch the wars, the sufferings on earth, and it'll rise much more compassion and empathy sensations compared to the time when you had never taken knowledge of the entheogenic world. You might see how politicans lie and all the tricks and manipulation, these gained insights are always there even when not tripping. This education is a great defender if people have potiential evil plans against you, you recognise people's behaviour in an earlier state.

The opened doors and the acquired insights will remain in your mind, that's why you can build up trust and gain experience step by step.

The only difference is that if you're sober, your senses are less susceptible for incoming influences. When tripping, the mind-expansion starts with extending from the platform you were standing on till then.

With meditation, I never get or have gotten visuals, but definitely can make existing thoughts more realistic as in a dream.

I'm pretty sure lucid dreaming on command will be possible by Buddists who're doing it since their childhood and are now old. Some of them even have the ability to swallow poision without being physically affected. This impresses me as well:

http://www.nu.nl/news/1468392/122/Medit ... akker.html

Only in Dutch.

 

[lol*fan]

I totally agree. Use of psychedelics can help develop your daily state of consciousness.

Great story on the Chinese construction worker. Here it is in English.

 

[HeartCore]

I know McKenna never appeared to be fond of meditation,

Because for him it didn't work. He tried hard according to himself and never got anywhere close. His way of testing things out, or in his words: 'seperate shit from shinola,' was to say 'show me what you got'.

And I guess after you've done that for a few times near Amazonian shamans using Ayahuasca, meditation begins to look like the more difficult and less rewarding route.

Interesting also is that most of the interesting ancient meditation techniques that people seem to suggest as a replacement for psychedelics, where actually developed in a culture which at the time, was highly involved in psychedelic use. Supposedly, that's why meditating while loaded works so well

 

[BrainEater]

i guess sometimes it's your only choice to meditate while loaded

 

[Guest]

brugmansia, that were just my thoughts, but after reading your ideas, i have to agree with them, but not completely. i explained it wrong: psychedelics will open permanentely your perceptions, but after the trip is gone, all the enlightment will begin to slowly fade away, and after some years, your ego has covered and healed from the wounds at 100%. but there will be still doors that will never close.
my opinion, in meditation, is that these doors will slowly open, but they will never close, and once you acheive enlightment, it won't fade away, or if it does, much more slowly.
but this is just an idea, and don't take it that seriously that i won't either.
i just find meditation much more rewarding than psychedelics, because it is more natural, the openess. it is not a blast that you get on an afternoon while tripping. i've had my share of overwhelming psychedelic experiences, and, as far as i know, they teach you too much in too little time, and most of the precious information is lost. but you can look at it in both ways: you can love the teacher that knows so much that it keeps talking and talking, and you trying to get some notes, but he speaks so fast you cannot follow his thoughs, and just get random ideas out of his speech. or you like to take it calm, do your homework, and be prepared to have a talk with this teacher, maybe you can maintain a dialog, and although his ideas will flow much slower, all of them will be understandable to you, because you caught his attention and he won't move subject without you following him.
i think this is the kind of relation I (and that's written in CAPITAL LETTERS) have with psychedelics. i am now doing my homework after my last lesson was such a shock that my ego is still struggling to see if he survives or not, and that was a year ago. i don't think that i will have another lesson so soon. i have still much to learn and many thinking to do, and meditation really helps me getting my thoughts in order, and i have recently reached a spot in my meditation where i can get random thoughts, and their clarity is astonishing. perhaps i have scratched the teacher's skin, perhaps i just look at problems in another way by myself, metaphorically speaking. i like to think that i can have a look, while meditating, in the shallowest waters of the big river of life.
these are my experiences, and it is by them that i have that opinion on psychedelics, because all that i have learned through meditation, i can access at any moment that i am minimally relaxed. my biggest certainties that i've have in those "heroic" psychedelic sessions, have vanished away, and some pages that i have managed to write while seeing the sheet set on fire, age like it was 500 years old in just one second, and seeing sparkling auras around my handwriting, are just phrases, some of them unfinished, some of them very condensed, and others thoughts that i will never relate to what i was thinking at the moment, because it is impossible to remember one thought in the enourmous flow of thoughts, breaking and destroying every tiny bit of ego until oblivion.

 

[user_1919]

daytripper I agree with you but disagree with you at the same time. Meditation is a route that is slower, and for those who want to move slower. If you cannot process the information the psychedelic experience is trying to throw at you, wait a few more year, wait till you can process it, casue eventually you will be able to.

"explained it wrong: psychedelics will open permanentely your perceptions, but after the trip is gone, all the enlightment will begin to slowly fade away, and after some years, your ego has covered and healed from the wounds at 100%. but there will be still doors that will never close. "

I don't agree with this. I believe that psychedelic experience permantly opens your door, and they never shut. What makes you think that the knowledge you gain from the psychedelic experience just vanishes if you still practice with psychedelics? Like any knowledge, when you are not in the presense of it, it will vanish, but the psychedelics, for me, have opens doors that will never close. They have opened my mind to so many things, and once subjected to it, I won't be able to think differently, casue really, they are showing me the truth, and why would you believe anything else?

"my opinion, in meditation, is that these doors will slowly open, but they will never close, and once you acheive enlightment, it won't fade away, or if it does, much more slowly. "

I agree with this, but I still believe it won't fade. Nothing that is summited to be 'enlightenment' will fade. And what says you can't achieve 'enlightenment' through the use of psychedelic plants?

"i just find meditation much more rewarding than psychedelics, because it is more natural, the openess."

Depending on what substances you use. If you consume Ayahuasca of Psilocybin Mushrooms, you can't really get much more natural than that. You are connected to the natural world in a way never thought possible.

"i've had my share of overwhelming psychedelic experiences, and, as far as i know, they teach you too much in too little time, and most of the precious information is lost. but you can look at it in both ways: you can love the teacher that knows so much that it keeps talking and talking, and you trying to get some notes, but he speaks so fast you cannot follow his thoughs, and just get random ideas out of his speech. or you like to take it calm, do your homework, and be prepared to have a talk with this teacher, maybe you can maintain a dialog, and although his ideas will flow much slower, all of them will be understandable to you, because you caught his attention and he won't move subject without you following him. "

Agree. But this is where the maturity comes in for the user. You must be able to process the information that is being thrown your way. This is why I take 6 months between high doses. It takes a LONG time to process the information that is beinging flooded into my mind. This is where I believe meditation comes in use. To meditate on what the plant teacher has taught you, to try and process it via meditation.

Anyways, sorry for the long post.

PEACE & LOVE

 

[????????]

...since you guys are discussing meditation:

When you try to do it, is there a time when you know you are "successful"? If so, how do you recognize this? I have tried relaxing my body-mind by what I think can be likened to meditation and eventually I get subtle vibrations that get me... deeper. So how do you know when you get "there" ?

 

[BrainEater]

hey felipe for me it's like i sit there or lay there and then i just let it go and try to progressevily relax my body... until i am bodily so relaxed that i don't need to listen to my body anymore.... then i just sit there and stare at a random object and try not to focus on anything .. just let everything float through my stream of consciousness.... sometimes i close the eyes instead....

when i have eyes opened and keep focussing with my eye on somethin or nothin then random stuff disappears or kind of morphs and sometimes everything disappears... i haven't got sooo deep into it, but well when you keep your attention like that i don't know where you can go, but slight distractions or changes of attention let this state go as fast as it has come or even faster...

it is quite amazing....

peace.

 

[Guest]

i am in a hurry, but i want to add something. user_1919, i'll reply to you later, it will take very long for me to write what i want to say to you.
phillippos, you can reach deep meditation by yourself, and you will know when you will find the path to storm the gates of being. for me, one of the first signs that i am entering deep realms is the appearance of random thoughts of astonishing clarity.
my way of meditating is like this: clothes must be the most confortable possible, or if you do it naked at the sun is even better. you sit down with your back straight and close your eyes. everything must be confortable, don't do those crazy yoga positions because you can break your neck. then, i start some breathing exercises. breathe deep, first with your belly and then with your chest, without stopping. count your inhales like this: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 etc.
when you start to feel that you seem disconnected from your body, focus in the moment as deep as you can. don't go wandering aimless. focus on the moment, and you will find a LOT of space to think about. then, you can take it the way you like it. focusing on the sensations, thinking about a problem WITHOUT STRESSING OUT, listening to every sound, focusing on the CEV's that might happen, etc...
if you are lucky and persistent, some thoughts pop up during this stage.
that's my experience and nothing more than that. your results may vary.

 

[st.bot.32]

I think the question shouldn't be what is considered natural or not natural, but what is the effect and the end result? It is a tool used to achieve an effect. If it works, and is useful, then there you go.

There are different kinds of meditation, certain schools of meditation (Buddhist schools, etc) follow strict guidelines used to get specific results.

I find it interesting, the kind of trance, or meditation mentioned here, I was kind of doing naturally long before I tried psychedelics. Because I used to listen to a lot of minimalist music, with my eyes closed, until I reached that state where your eyelids seem to vanish because the visuals are so clear, and random thoughts seem to interconnect perfectly, time sense vansihes.. the present and near future merge or even flip flop... With eyes open, objects seem to flutter, weave and move, but the thought patters aren't as deep, more distracted..

Psychedelics for me were completely different. A tool to explore my senses, and how my senses interact with the world. How my mind processes the multitude of information it receives all at once. How my memory interconnects with how i percieve the world as well. (eg thought patterns, mere words triggering distant memories.. or... I had always felt that memories had certain colors or flavors associated with them, and suddenly I was living the present as if it were a memory in the making...)

You can explore these states somewhat in meditation, but it is completely different for me with eyes wide open, interacting with fellow human beings and all the deep connections that brings out inside you.. living the real world anew.

And yeah, I'm still "integrating" my first LSD trip.. a long time later and many trips later as well..

Oh I would just add as well (sorry for the long post) that meditation may be similar to tripping in some ways but it is quite different as when tripping your thoughts are being "guided" by the "spirit" or character of whatever substance you are on, so if you profoundly relax and let yourself go on LSD your thought patterns trace contours, spiral into infinity, in and out of memory, synesthesia... (yum.. i miss LSD) wheras on a medium, heavy cannabis dose thought patterns break into fragments and you end up bouncing around a thought pattern from various random viewpoints.. (At least I do) In a way this is why relaxation/meditation in addition to psychedelics is so important, if you rely on psychedelics to achieve the deeper states you will never truly have a point of comparison to what your mind can do by itself...