Human space/time migration and the new frontier ?

[IJesusChrist]

Randomness has to do with everything.

If there is randomness science is fallible.

If there is no randomness, everything can be explained.

If something isn't random, that means it has a sequence behind it. That means your thoughts, your consciousness are explainable by all actions and events prior to now.

However, if there is random events, nothing can be explained, and all is only based on statistics.

 

[BrainEater]

and what has Q.M.B.S. to do with belief??

 

[IJesusChrist]

q.m. predicts that there are random events. which is b.s. :wink:

 

[magickmumu]

I have been watching a philosopher on dutch TV who had his own show. He talked about randomness. His few was that there is randomnes and people who see order in this, or a pastern, are deluded.
Philosophy isn't what it used to be.

 

[BrainEater]

so w000t about the extended theories of Q.M. which try to minimize randomness and maximize caculcability???

or w00t about the guy who possibly knows the supposedly infinite numbers sequences of the number "PI" ??

and well yeah determinism?? what about that when there would be no randomness at all???

 

[IJesusChrist]

I believe in determinism. With no random patterns, time doesn't need to exist - nothing is time dependent, and everything progress from point a to point b because it has to go along a predetermined path.

The numbers in pi are also not random, they are from the ratio of radius over the area of a circle - you can calculate them.

And yes, woot for more calculability less probability/statistics in quantum...

But yes. No random means everything is predetermined, time is just a lucky way to experience consciousness.

 

[BrainEater]

nice one but what has determinism to do with belief???

and why you want to eliminate randomness from your spectrum of ideas??? just cuz u don't "believe" in it??ß what has random to do with belief really i don't get it...


predetermination is unrealistic anyways.... cuz time OBVIOUSLY EXISTS in spite of possibly being an ILLUSION but something like a REAL ILLUSION.... everything is time dependant in the space time continuum in which we live.... or the space continuum is dependant on everything... who knows...


the sequence of numbers in the "number" PI !!! IS !!! RANDOM cuz its INFINITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! INFINITE U GET IT !!!!!??????????? I DONT THINK SO! SORRRY JUST THOUGHT I HAD TO MAKE THAT CLEAR! NO OFFENSE OR ANYTHING!

maybe there is indeed a "predetermined path" but if there was anyway, then i'd suppose this path would be defined by certain conditions and of course predictability and probability is a thing which you can calculate too if you have enough information to do so.

peace :weedman:

 

[IJesusChrist]

... Random is an indescribable sequence of numbers. The numbers in pi appear random, but they follow a ratio. The sequence itself may seem random, but it's a logical path. It's base 10 for a number that repeats indefinitely, pi can be represented as 1, in base pi... Random is a hard concept to grasp, and if you can show me a process that gives completely random results I will forward you whatever you want.

As for determinism as a belief it's a belief because I can't prove it, why is that not a belief?

... the time thing is hard to grasp, sorry. Of course nobody truley can understand it but you can come very close.


You can definitely experience time, but in determinism, you are only conceiving the past, not because it takes a few nanoseconds to get to your brain, but because consciousness isn't actually responsible for anything. It appears as if it is, but really you are just experiencing events that have to happen, with the weird illusion that you're in control.

But don't try to understand this, why would you? It's rather stupid to try.

 

[BrainEater]

i don't care whether "true random" infinite fractal formations could have infinite forms really, cuz when you combine the idea of randomness and infinity, some results might seem exagerated or so, cuz well basically anything would be possible would it???
and i don't know whether i can understand the numerogical and geometrical dimensions of the number PI.. i never said i could...


maybe space is only a frontier for our bodies in this time and consciousness can travel to very distant places already?????
yet without consciousness our body can only "sleep" and therefore we need to keep it safe which is one of the greatest problems in space migration. like space ships must keep the passengers alive obviously... so if we wanted to travel faster than the speed of light we would need to enter a space where our bodies would need to "precede" gravitational forces or the travelling speed would rip our bodies apart. i don't know how that can be done, but maybe we need to first make the step of travelling at the speed of light before going any further...


or maybe we needed a place where to go in the first place... to create colonies of humanity on nice planets in the galaxies and all that....


until now i rather like where i am at which is planet earth and i hope that it will not be raped as much as it has been raped in the past so that we can enjoy living on this nice planet....



peace :weedman:

 

[IJesusChrist]

The universe is full of physical limits, and the speed of light is one of them...

No phyiscal mass will ever reach the speed of light... for more reasons than one.

 

[BrainEater]

right it is impossible then to travel faster than light except we would leave the universe and enter it again.

 

[Crimzen]

limiting reality by saying it's made up of strings that vibrate.

how so?
i dont see how this limits anything...
it just means that its made from something..whys it matter what?
whether its ripples, atoms or strings it doesnt limit reality

im not sure about string theory but its pretty interesting

 

[BrainEater]

it will limit your reality, when you start to conform your belief system to it, because in spite of being an accurate mathematical model or description of reality, if you put over such a "veil" over real reality in which you dwell, then you probably stop perceiving with all of your senses as effectively as you could, because you possibly start to assume certain information and fill the gaps... but well this is known and also it's known that the theory in itself doesn't limit reality... it will only be limited for you if your conception of reality is limited by sticking to probably limited beliefs, that are attached to the theory or to your conception of reality.

maybe reality is per se unlimited but we can't imagine that or are uncomfortable with it so we have to create artificial limits in our minds.

 

[ophiuchus]

you don't understand random... in order to make that graph, you would either need an equation (which gives predictable outcomes) or you are measuring things.

Everything we can measure is based on physical laws that we can (or will be able to) describe, and are not random.

Unless you believe in Q.M. B.S.

i believe this one is measuring something. keep in mind that "physical laws" are still theory as far as science is concerned, so how does that validate the sentence? "everything we can measure (with man-made units) is based on physical laws (that are theoretical and man-made)." and what do you mean by will be able to? that leaves a very large opening. not trying to be an asshole, but science IS fallible by definition. it's the best information we've got right now, and is not claimed to be truth ever, only by evangelics, when describing their opposition.. im surprised you said that.

If there is no randomness, everything can be explained

how do you figure we'll be able to explain everything? im trying to be very honest, i hope you dont think im being snide..

However, if there is random events, nothing can be explained, and all is only based on statistics

nothing HAS been explained, not accurately. theories. we have at least 3 popular ones, none of which really work when it gets down to it. why are you seeing in such terms "if its not black then it must be white! if not one theory, then another!" i think order is just as non existant as chaos, and that is the illusion. neither exist. they are only approximations, perfections created and designed by human minds. by that, i dont think that there can ever be a unified theory, it's just impossible to pin down something thats infinite, and never precise, especially with imprecise instruments (physical tools, human brain, etc). only math is precise, but like i said, it is not real, its man made ideals. so no, i dont believe in qm 100%, but i think it's useful. i think all of the theories out there are useful just not necessarily true. imo i dont think we'll ever recreate the universe in an equation form, it will always be too complex.

... Random is an indescribable sequence of numbers. The numbers in pi appear random, but they follow a ratio. The sequence itself may seem random, but it's a logical path. It's base 10 for a number that repeats indefinitely, pi can be represented as 1, in base pi... Random is a hard concept to grasp, and if you can show me a process that gives completely random results I will forward you whatever you want.

im not trying to argue that first part, but i can however, present to you a string of numbers all day long that you will never be able to predict future numbers with...? you could plausibly call that random by definition, correct?

You can definitely experience time, but in determinism, you are only conceiving the past

if you can only conceive the past, then you'd have to be conceiving it from the future for it to be considered past, no? a "path" is itself an expression of time. time is a vector, by space expanding, time is valid, because they are all the same 1 fundamental. energy. energy is space and time combined, and everything is made of energy, so i dont see how you can validate determinism in this climate. i'd like you to try though, really. im interested in trying to see your logic, but i can't right now, too many holes for my mind to peer through..

 

[BrainEater]

energy is space and time combined

no it's space(mass) and the speed of light!! but oh wait what was time then? i think it was considered a higher dimension in which all space-possibilities could take place and all processes could start and end... think of a work that would take you forever... would you ever be able to finish it?
in this sense anyway i think determinism can be validated but maybe also indeterminism can be validated, because how do you want to prove indeterminism? you'd need to know that something/someone determined everything and if you knew there was nothing that did that, then indeterminism enters a new dimension... because if there wasn't something/someone who determined everything, your own and others' determination would or could be of significant greater value.

but if determinism can also be validated what sense would it make to attach the value you give your own or others' determination only because there could be something/someone that has already decided everything that happened and will happen???

i think improbabilitiy limits the diversity of outcomes of certain "events" or whatever but maybe it also shapes these events to some extent, in the same way that probability does that. so is it all just like a game and if we know the rules or whatever we can ride the waves of probability more easily and act like we know and therefore just take it easy??

who knows.. what is for sure is that when you lit a fire you'll get smoke!!!


peace :weedman:

 

[IJesusChrist]

I think you all should pick up some books and attend a few physics classes. I will be taking quantum mechanics next semester I plan to question the professor every week, if not every lecture.

AdrianHaffner - had I the technology (which doesn't exist yet) I could tap into your 10^10,000,000,000,000,000 connections in your brain, and according to the data I collect, predict everything you are going to say for the rest of your life.

I made a very very bad video on youtube a year ago or so, if you would like to watch it, it has to do with exactly this type of stuff... although my eventual conclusions in the video contradicts what I'm saying here - both of these conclusions still stand so go figure.

P.S. Try not to kill yourself listening to my voice

Actually this video creates a more indepth paradox than I want to go into, maybe I'll make another one with my new knowledge of the subject... warning - no editing.

 

[BrainEater]

probability equations can represent events if one side of the equation is the probability of this or that happening and on the other side the improbability of that happening. the middle of the equation then would be the event itself, like what would be the factors, etc etc and how would they be influenced. like a mathematical equation, but maybe already in a logical system like into which standard mathematical equations are embedded. similarly like in math there would be some rules like you can't divide thru 0 or so. i don't know whether determinism would enter a new dimension then as we could calculate basically everything that will happen by probability calculations with informations from the past. maybe we'd become less self-determined or more self-determined, depending on how much we would make ourselves dependant from a machine that could calculate the probable and the improbable future(s). mathematics is the language of nature, and what we do is trying to understand it and represent it in an understandable way, by for example creating mathematical models...

 

[IJesusChrist]

The main point in determinism is that your entire life is basically already written - destiny. However your destiny cannot be changed, ever, at all... The time line through the life of the universe is linear, and one dimensional, i.e. there aren't possibilities. However with the absense of predictability as of yet - things SEEM random, our will SEEMS free.

What it eventually boils down to is everything in the universe, space and time IS a singularity - everything has already happened, the end of the universe has been written down, and we could find it if we so choose - however we have been given the ability to experience not only space, but time. That is the beauty of life.

It's like being an actor in the play, you could look at the ending if you wanted to, and read the script, or you could just go with the flow, and submerse yourself in the scene. Psychadelics allow you to see the set...

 

[BrainEater]

what lets you draw this conclusions?

 

[IJesusChrist]

... How is it not clear?

To go from point A to point B a certain set of rules are made that have no dependance on time. I.e. Given A, we know B.

Therefore, time can be completely neglected.

Therefore, nothing you, or I do, ever has changed anything inbetween A and B, thus the in between A and B are details that can be completely neglected, however are able to be viewed, if you want to.

How can we have will, if the beginning and end must be the same, and the path from the beginning to the end must always follow the same set of rules, the same path? How does time affect anything we do? Essentially everything has already happened since the end is already known... This is a far out concept, but not difficult to understand by any means.