How can you gain insight from a drug?

[MichaelVipperman]

New article to answer what it means when people say that they took a drug and then learned something.

http://michaelvipperman.wordpress.com/2 ... 4/insight/

"...abstract ideas may be felt physically, making them far more concrete and therefore easier to evaluate and understand."

 

[mosaicmouse]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[bringdahiveback]

very interesting

 

[HeartCore]

You cannot gain insight from a drug. Insights come from critical thinking, not from drugs. Taking drugs without critical thinking, like 99.99% of the users do (and I had been doing for two decades), will get you nowhere but you will tell yourself differently. We are brought up without critical thinking, that's why advertising works so well on everybody. Once you fix your thinking, learn the trivium method and spot the logical fallacies and experience the clarity of thought you though wasn't possible, you won't touch drugs to gain insights ever again.

And I know, this goes against the 2000+ postings I made here but it's true anyway.

 

[adetheproducer]

Crazy concept is it possible to learn the lesson with out the teacher, might want to ask some tibetan monks what they have to say about that they have riding that high for years. But as heartcore says drugs do not give insight. Learning, application of knowledge and openness give rise to insight drugs just help break down barries thousands of years of social evolution created and switch off the filters your brain uses to reduce the information recieved to a day to day managable level. You can either use this and study your minds inner workings and the universes interconnectivity or you can go woh en Im like real high man and not be changed when you come down or you can go aaahhh no more reality. Its you choice.

 

[zezt]

Crazy concept is it possible to learn the lesson with out the teacher, might want to ask some tibetan monks what they have to say about that they have riding that high for years. But as heartcore says drugs do not give insight. Learning, application of knowledge and openness give rise to insight drugs just help break down barries thousands of years of social evolution created and switch off the filters your brain uses to reduce the information recieved to a day to day managable level. You can either use this and study your minds inner workings and the universes interconnectivity or you can go woh en Im like real high man and not be changed when you come down or you can go aaahhh no more reality. Its you choice.

For a start, psychedelics are not 'drugs'. It is crude to call sacred medicine drugs and shows no respect, and reflects the modern mind talking about them. Indigenous peoples nearly always have very sacred names for these substances, not 'drugs'--putting them in same category of freaking aspirins:|

Secondly, the very MEANING OF 'insight' will have come from the very experience of psychedelics, because no other experience offers the full-on direct experience of that term like psychedelics!

 

[Interdimensional Creature]

If mother earth were communicating with us, entheogens is a way it can be done.

 

[ChrisGayle]

That article is really a great read..being a newbie at the Psychonaut it was really of great help...thanks for sharing..i am much obliged and the article is greatly appreciated.

 

[Denae84]

The truth is, recovering addicts gain insights, positive experiences and inspiration after they stop doping and live a clean life.The truth is, recovering addicts gain insights, positive experiences and inspiration after they stop doping and live a clean life. - See more at: You can gain insight from quitting drugs - Letters - Coquitlam Now

The truth is, recovering addicts gain insights, positive experiences and inspiration after they stop doping and live a clean life. - See more at: You can gain insight from quitting drugs - Letters - Coquitlam Now

The truth is, recovering addicts gain insights, positive experiences and inspiration after they stop doping and live a clean life. - See more at: You can gain insight from quitting drugs - Letters - Coquitlam Now

The truth is, recovering addicts gain insights, positive experiences and inspiration after they stop doping and live a clean life. - See more at: You can gain insight from quitting drugs - Letters - Coquitlam Now

The truth is, recovering addicts gain insights, positive experiences and inspiration after they stop doping and live a clean life. - See more at: You can gain insight from quitting drugs - Letters - Coquitlam Now

 

[sparky0512]

First post on here, sorry if brought up a dead post or it doesnt belong here but this seemed like the best place IMO at least,

Anyway I've tripped around 30 times (lsd, 25i, 25b, 25c, 4 aco-dmt and who knows what other random chemical i got when i first started), and Ive been reading alot about "ego death" or loss. Whats the best way to experience this? I really wanna "kill" my ego and get a new view on life. The highest dose of lsd ive taken was around 300 to 350ug's. A couple times though. And the lowest probably around 75ug maybe less. I felt similar things to what ive been reading about but i feel like i was to distracted, i.e. getting lost in music, watching a movie or just being with other friends tripping and not being able to focus on my thoughts. Or maybe i just havent dosed high enough. Im not sure, but I also respect LSD too MUCH to just go out and eat a shit ton of blotters.
This is kinda broad but how many mics usually result in an ego death? Im 5'11 155. And what should i do whilst tripping to avoid getting distracted? I always get distracted lmao

 

[startrek]

Hi, Sparky! I'm new, too, and I wonder the same thing. From the hundreds of experience reports I have read, I am under the impression that these are the factors in an ego-death experience:

- a fairly high dose of psychedelic substance
- a calm, quiet environment
- meditation during the trip (as opposed to dancing at a rave, laughing with other trippers, etc.)
- determination to let go/overcome the fear of losing one's identity (which I gather takes practice for some people)

To the experienced trippers here who have experience ego death, do you agree with this?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

To the experienced trippers here who have experience ego death, do you agree with this?

You left out one factor: the presence of one or two sitters.

Since the experience leading up to the point of ego-death can be terrifying, we need some encouragement to stop resisting and instead push through to the other side. Whether that sitter is a psychotherapist, a shaman or a good friend is not of that much importance.

Of course, there will be some who say you don't need a sitter, or shouldn't need a sitter, but for most people it really helps.

 

[badilo]

im not sure i agree with that. when your at that point or near to it i dont think anything but yourself can have any effect on your trip. of course having a sitter helps with anxiety and such prior to the trip but i do not think any outside noises/navigation have any meaning when your at that level. startrek if i had set out to achieve ego death i would follow those points but i have only experienced ego with dmt and there is not much choice in the matter. its a hard thing to describe how anyone gets to ego death but i can normally tell its going to be a far out experience as soon as i feel it coming on.

 

[zezt]

You cannot gain insight from a drug. Insights come from critical thinking, not from drugs. Taking drugs without critical thinking, like 99.99% of the users do (and I had been doing for two decades), will get you nowhere but you will tell yourself differently. We are brought up without critical thinking, that's why advertising works so well on everybody. Once you fix your thinking, learn the trivium method and spot the logical fallacies and experience the clarity of thought you though wasn't possible, you won't touch drugs to gain insights ever again.

And I know, this goes against the 2000+ postings I made here but it's true anyway.

OMG look what the trivium (I calls it trivial) method gone and done to Jan Irvin! made him into a right arrogant so and so. And is this any surprise. Wasn't this 'education' reserved for the elite? And look what a load of arrogant gits THEY are. So no, I warned Jan about the trivium from the get go, and when I joined the forum to do with it, called tragedy and Hope, and CRITICALLY asked questions guess what happened? I got ganged up on and then was banned and they wouldn't even allow me to copy the posts I had posted there which had taken me great efforts to compose to try and get my point across.

WE DO NOT NEED THE TRIVIUM METHOD to critically think!

Native Americans didn't use it and they could see right through the toxic BS the Europeans brought to them.

ALSO we both need insight which mostly comes as vision, and critical thinking. Not a dualistic one over the other which is where you seem to be coming from

For example, when we have vjsionary experience, on integration we need to explore mythologies and how these stories may affect our perception of reality

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

OMG look what the trivium (I calls it trivial) method gone and done to Jan Irvin! made him into a right arrogant so and so. And is this any surprise. Wasn't this 'education' reserved for the elite? And look what a load of arrogant gits THEY are. So no, I warned Jan about the trivium from the get go

Yes, although there's certainly some value in being familiar with the logical fallacies, simply learning those fallacies by heart (and repeating them by rote) is not going to help you discover the truth of existence, nor does it protect you from cognitive bias and buying into deluded ideas (like thoroughly debunked conspiracy theories). Yes, Jan Irvin and his yes men are the perfect example of that. I don't think they think critically at all. And when it comes to defending their own cherished notions, they're not averse to employing the logical fallacies themselves either. Which is truly ironic.

I do however agree with Heartcore that simply ingesting psychedelics is not enough. But nobody claims it is. Between trips there's plenty of time to read, study and master new skills. Aren't the most vocal advocates of psychedelics constantly talking about books they read? And about ideas they picked up from studying quantum theory, biology, mathematics, psychology, astronomy, history and so on? Can one not do psychedelics AND meditate? Can one not do psychedelics AND study the trivium (or similar ideas)?

I think one can, and it's the best way to go.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

It doesn't get more retarded than this:

Jan Irvin, How To Stop Chemtrails - YouTube

[YOUTUBE]

 

[zezt]

Jan irvin threatened to tear Simon Powell's tongue out, because Simon criticized his ideas in a Red Ice Creations interview! So people like Irvin frighten me because given the power he most certainly would be part of what he advocates hon that video. And nobody would have ANY free speech because he would throw the trivium at you if you DARED defy his 'logical discourse' or hadn't read his blessed CITATIONS lol.

You can't have a conversation with these trivium heads because they spout Latin at you and it becomes a barrier to any real direct conversation. They use it to try shut you up. Exploration via conversation should be open for all, and allowed to be as flexible--warts and all--as possible

 

[Finarfin]

I think the trivium as a method of critical thinking can be useful.
It,s good to learn fallacies. I personally learned those logical fallacies at (high) school.
Jan Irvin might be a propagandist for the trivium method. However attacking Jan (and his followers) is not attacking the trivium.

You are talking about two things here. first is the person of Jan Irvin and his ideas. Second is logical thinking and the trivium method.
So for the sake of argument let,s separate these things.

I do not see why anybody who thinks of himself as logical, can be against logical thinking?

 

[Finarfin]

I think it,s good to learn how to think logical and how to be critical.
The trivium method is a method of learning and by learning and studying we can gain insight and we can learn new things.
By learning those fallacies you become less prone to buy into arguments that make use of these fallacies.

The trivium is basically a method to learn how to read and write. The quadrivium is a method to learn arithmetic. Reading writing and arithmetic are the basics people need to learn.

I think zezt and CM are criticizing the people using the method and not the method itself. That,s why i propose to separate these two things (method and people using the method).
I think Zezt and CM are bias against the method because they do not like Jan Irvin and the people using the method.


Do i believe the trivium method is the only way to gain insight?
No i do not believe the trivium is the only way. I think there are different ways to gain insight on different levels.
I do not believe psychedelics are a magic pill to solve all problems.
i also believe nobody knows everything. There is nobody who has all the answers. Maybe there are people who claim they have all the answers or who claim to know the truth. I think people who claim to know the truth are very likely full of BS .

Psychedelics are a tool i think. Psychedelics can help us come into contact with parts of our selfs, with our emotions and or our psyche. Psychedelics done with the right set and setting can be healing.
Insight is one thing, however there is also development. People can develop themselves at many levels intellectually, physically emotional. The trivium is only a method of learning. However we also have our body our fantasy and our emotions that we can develop.

 

[Finarfin]

WE DO NOT NEED THE TRIVIUM METHOD to critically think!

Native Americans didn't use it and they could see right through the toxic BS the Europeans brought to them.

The Trivium is basically a method to learn how to read and write.
Without the trivium you could not have posted here.
Yes Native Americans did not use it. The Europeans used it against them.
I think reading and writing like a hammer or psychedelics or anything else is a tool.
It can be used for good or worst.
It,s my believe that what can bring you up, also can bring you down.

If you want to argue against the trivium method, please argue against the context of the method.
The native Americans didn,t use it, i think is a weak and laughable argument.
(argumentum native americanum :Oo::lol You need to come with better arguments.

Back on topic: i do believe we can gain insight from psychedelic experiences. People have reported gaining insight which resulted in them changing there lives. The insight people get from these experiences may not be intellectual insights. Insights may be emotional, psychological, spiritual. People tend to get insights in there behavior or insight in the impact of there actions have on there surroundings.