GOD?

[Caduceus Mercurius]

but I really respect him for all his "hokus pokus bullshit" speeches everytime someone tries to include esoterism in a serious discussion.

I respect him for a lot of things, but I never respected him for that. I do not believe he has studied astrology, extrasensory perception and mysticism sufficiently to be so bold in his judgements about these matters. By labeling certain subjects as "hokus pokus bullshit" it's clear he's not interested in any discussion about these things. But are these things irrelevant to the psychonaut? No, of course they are not. Though some might consider us druggies, our primary goal is to understand ourselves and the world around us. But how can you understand yourself or the world if you already determine way in advance that certain fields of study concern nothing but "loony" issues. True, the New Age movement abounds with weird philosophies and beliefs, but it's not all bogus.

The "What is Ego-Death?" thread contains a hokus pokus prediction which I wrote a week ago and didn't edit. Next Monday GOD will have a significant experience, most likely with a woman. My hope is that it has been his time-out from the forum which has led to that fortunate encounter. I'm going to contact him next Tuesday to verify what I predicted.

You see, it's not an insignificant issue: if astrology (when practiced by an expert astrologer) actually works, we need to radically revise our world view to incorporate the absolute correlation between the motions of the planets and our personal lives. Especially for psychonauts, wondering about the issue of determinism versus free will, and concerned with what exactly entails ego-death, this is a very important issue.

Also, as mentioned by Stan Grof at the World Psychedelic Forum in Basel this year, there are psychedelic therapists who are now experimenting with planning psychedelic sessions on the basis of the planetary transits of their patients (something I've been doing for years) and getting very good results. Can psychedelic accidents (bad trips, people falling from high buildings) be prevented by those who decide never to have a high dose trip during a Mars or Saturn transit? Can psychological and spiritual benefits be maximized by planning sessions during Jupiter or Neptune transits? I don't know the answers to those questions, but if we simply ridicule whatever we do not understand, we'll never find out.

 

[druglessdouglas]

im with CM on that.
i found it embarassing watching God chase people around the board picking holes in everything they said, because they happened to mention holding beliefs that God neither understood or agreed with. several inteligent and interesting people have stopped posting as a result of his hounding. i almost left the forum because of it. he did the same thing with me when i first joined

 

[Guest]

Regarding astrology, and to make it short, I just can't understand how one can take predictions based on the deities of an old pantheon (why the Greek/Roman one and not another?) seriously.

I respect the people who wants to believe in it (my GF does), but to me it's just like hearing that the Earth is flat or that cold fusion was achieved by two small geniuses in their houses.

I don't know the answers to those questions, but if we simply ridicule whatever we do not understand, we'll never find out.

Science doesn't do that, several experiments has been done, without any results, it just moved on to something else.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Regarding astrology, and to make it short, I just can't understand how one can take predictions based on the deities of an old pantheon (why the Greek/Roman one and not another?) seriously.

These are archetypal energies, not historical personalities. In Sanskrit the planets have other names, referring to similar deities (Surya, Chandra, Shukra, Buddha, Guru, Sani etc.). The names of the signs are similarly related. The predictions are not based, as you say, on the deities of a certain pantheon, but on mathematical formulations based on astronomical phenomena. You can practice astrology without mentioning any mytholgical creature. You can of course say: "The largest gas planet in our solar system is separated by exactly 120 degrees from the Eastern horizon at the moment of your birth." But ancient astrologers have developed a language (logos) for those technical terms to simply say: "Jupiter trines your ascendant." One must learn the basics of astrology before one can understand anything about it, much less "believe" in it. You don't "believe" in astrology. You either learn to work with it, or you don't. It's as self evident as a DMT trip. You don't "believe" that DMT alters your perception, you either know it or you don't. It's the same with astrology. Especially Vedic astrology.

I respect the people who wants to believe in it (my GF does),

That in itself is a derogatory statement, as if people want to believe in it. Your girlfriend doesn't want to believe in astrology, she just has more experience with it than you.

but to me it's just like hearing that the Earth is flat

Ha! For me it's the exact opposite! The idea that our lives and the rest of the universe are not related sounds incredibly outdated to me. We went from believing that the planets are spheres spinning around the Sun (the view of the ancient Vedic astrologers) to believing the Earth is flat and the center of the universe (the view of early Christians), back to the correct view that the Earth is round and spinning around the Sun, and gradually understanding (through Bells theorem and quantum mechanics perhaps) that everything is connected and that the microcosmos and macrocosmos are intimately related in a mathematical way (math not myth, concerning astronomical objects, not Greek gods).

Science doesn't do that, several experiments has been done, without any results, it just moved on to something else.

What experiments are you talking about, and how do the results of those particular experiments relate to this discussion?

 

[Guest]

I honestly don't want to get started on this, I'm sort of hot tempered when it comes to this kind of thing, and it's not worth getting angry (I know we're not right now, but maybe later) over this.

You got your opinion on this, I got mine, and we're surely not going to change it, especially on a web forum

I trully respect you, and that I believe that astrology is not real while you pretend the opposite isn't going to change anything, I just think we shouln't enter into this kind of sterile debate.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

That's fine with me.

I will keep bringing up astrology though, particularly in discussions regarding the self, or the universe. Naturally on this forum that's going to be quite often.

 

[magickmumu]

I miss god because of his humour. Not because of his preaching.

I didn't get why God got so upset by what he called hocus pocus bullshit.
To my mind he was underestimating people.

I think in the end he became a caricature of himself.
I don't want to trash talk about him or anybody else. I guess he is very different in real life.

 

[FluidDruid]

I didn't get why God got so upset by what he called hocus pocus bullshit.
To my mind he was underestimating people.

It all started back when his parents informed him Santa wasn't the one bringing him presents.

I felt the same way.

 

[Forkbender]

I think GOD was so harsh against 'hocus pocus bullshit' because these systems of thought can keep a person from the true self, it can become a distracting abstraction, which will slow down your growth. I personally agree with this, although I do agree with others posting here that a lot of these ideas can actually be beneficient for your own growth as well.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

although I do agree with others posting here that a lot of these ideas can actually be beneficient for your own growth as well.

The way to help people make good judgements as to which ideas can be helpful and which detrimental to your growth is to look at every idea, concept or practice separately, not to lump all of them together and jump to conclusions, immediately writing them off and ridiculing them. The way fundamentalist materialists speak about "esoteric beliefs and practices" is the same way most people lump all drugs together, as if there's no difference between H and LSD. Or the way fundamentalist Christians speak about anything occult, whether it be the latest Harry Potter novel, Buddhists creating a sand mandala for peace or a bunch of Satanists sacrificing children. To help people understand things, you must teach them how to discriminate, not do it for them.

 

[Pariah]

"or a bunch of Satanists sacrificing children."

:axe:

"not to lump all of them together and jump to conclusions, immediately writing them off and ridiculing them"

:lol:


Sorry, had to do it...

I agree with all of forks post, but especially:

"it can become a distracting abstraction"

What lumps esoteric *belief* together in my mind is the abandonment of the seemingly more solid, rational foundation for knowledge and replacing it with something intuition based.

When people use belief to make knowledge claims things get messy: I'd say the best way to make a knowledge claim is to constantly try and *disprove* the theory, not the other way round.

In the case of prediction by tea leaves / astrology / entrails: the prediction tells you something (bob's going to be happy tomorrow), you wait for the event (tomorrow), and when it occurs you look for the prediction(bob being happy): I saw bob smile today = bob is happy = my predictions work! ...now for the lottery numbers!

Disclaimer: I'm by no means saying trust in reason only throughout life, just that there needs to be some sort of balance between Reason and Ideology - and some clarity about the limits of each.

 

[Forkbender]

The way to help people make good judgements as to which ideas can be helpful and which detrimental to your growth is to look at every idea, concept or practice separately, not to lump all of them together and jump to conclusions, immediately writing them off and ridiculing them. The way fundamentalist materialists speak about "esoteric beliefs and practices" is the same way most people lump all drugs together, as if there's no difference between H and LSD. Or the way fundamentalist Christians speak about anything occult, whether it be the latest Harry Potter novel, Buddhists creating a sand mandala for peace or a bunch of Satanists sacrificing children. To help people understand things, you must teach them how to discriminate, not do it for them.

I agree with most of your post, but I also noticed that GOD's strategy worked with a lot of people. Lumping all ideas together is something that GOD did in response to the people who did exactly the same by accepting every esoteric idea without looking within themselves for corroboration. I understand why he dislikes people talking about it, because it may work for one person, but if this person starts to talk about it to others and others don't understand that it is a personal thing, it becomes religious dogma.

Stimulating discrimination of good ideas from bad ideas is something that is very hard. How to do it without making judgments? As I see it, GOD just refused to listen to esotericism, because it is not transferable to others and restricts meaning to the person. His fulminations are not so much against the ideas, but against spreading them like they are the ultimate truth.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

What lumps esoteric *belief* together in my mind is the abandonment of the seemingly more solid, rational foundation for knowledge and replacing it with something intuition based.

I don't think the 2012 enigma is intuition based. It's based on astronomy, Mayan astrology and mathematics. Astrology itself is not intuition based, it's a system of mathematical formulas and archetypal interpretations. Numerology and what is called sacred geometry also have nothing to do with intuition. Sacred geometry (involving the Platonic solids, Pi, the Golden Mean etc.) sheds new light on several esoteric issues such as telepathy and extrasensory perception.

Does ayahuasca really stimulate telepathy, as the person who coined the term telepathine for harmine seemed to suggest? If so, by what mechanisms would such telepathic experiences be possible?

We know all ancient people were fascinated with psychedelic drugs and star gazing. The Soma-ingesting Vedic scholars were expert astronomers (they understood and applied the spherical earth and heliocentric model about 10.000 years ago), mathematicians and astrologers. In recent weeks we've heard about two separate archeological findings suggesting ancient DMT use in South-America, and we know the Mayans were extraordinary astronomers and astrologers too. There are many other examples. Of course the fact that they did it does not mean we should too, but it does show the combination drugs and astrology has a long precedent, perhaps for a good reason.

The Church frowned upon astrology, Science then frowned upon both the Church and astrology. I suggest frown upon blind beliefs and dogmas, but investigate the sciences left by ancient people, especially knowledge of herbs and astrology. For in fact knowledge of herbs was also frowned upon by the Church, and is currently frowned upon by Science. It's the maverick scientists who are openminded enough to investigate the ancient usage of psychoactive and medicinal plants, and my common sense expectation is that more and more will start to investigate astrology.

With modern knowledge of psychedelics and the software to instantly calculate horoscopes and progress them into the future, there can be a very interesting revival of the ancient entheogen ingesting and soul searching star gazers.

As far as the Tarot, Atlantis, Lemuria, UFO's, the Illuminati, alien bloodlines and planet X are concerned, I'm not really interested anymore. Webpages and books on these issues are filled with unverifyable ideas. Astrology, at least the way I've come to practice it, can be verified. This says very little about me, but very much about the nature of reality.

 

[Forkbender]

The Church frowned upon astrology, Science then frowned upon both the Church and astrology.

Today this may be an obvious truth, but if you look at the history of the development of science, this is not how it happened. Science was allowed by the church to have a monopoly of truth of the material world. There was a form of agreement to divide the territory. And if you look at Newton for example you see that he spend more time studying astrology and other esoteric systems than he did studying what most people would now call modern science. Astrology has been a part of science until the 19th (?) century at least.

For in fact knowledge of herbs was also frowned upon by the Church, and is currently frowned upon by Science.

The amount of money is invested in researching natural remedies suggests otherwise. I agree that most pharmaceutical companies take nature and replace it with patentable synthetic alternatives, but the inspiration is most of the time in nature.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

There was a form of agreement to divide the territory.

Interesting.

Astrology has been a part of science until the 19th (?) century at least.

A very sad thing happened to astrology: its current usage of the tropical zodiac instead of the sidereal zodiac, as it was used in ancient India, Egypt and Greece. There was no difference between the two zodiacs about 2000 years ago, but due to the precession of the equinoxes (which the Vedic people knew about) the two are "drifting apart". The starting point of the signs are now about 23 degrees apart. According to astrologers who have worked with the sidereal zodiac, Western astrology will become more and more inaccurate as time passes. Western astrology says my Sun sign is Aries, which is bogus, because the Sun was factually visible against the backdrop of the astronomical constellation of Pisces. Whenever I speak of astrology, I'm talking about astrological calculations using a sidereal zodiac. Transit astrology and the aspects transcend the demarcation points of the signs, and thus remain useful and reliable tools for Western astrologers, despite their usage of the tropical zodiac. Sidereal astrology can withstand the rigorous testing of science, because it is itself a scientific method. Newton was fascinated by astrology, but he had only a flawed version of it to his disposal. Had he also known about Vedic astrology, it would have been fully integrated into modern science long ago.

 

[magickmumu]

I didn't get why God got so upset by what he called hocus pocus bullshit.
To my mind he was underestimating people.

It all started back when his parents informed him Santa wasn't the one bringing him presents.

I felt the same way.

When I was a kid I figured out Sinterklaas was a phoney myself. The school called my parents because I had said Sinterklaas isn’t real, to a kid who was scared of him.

I do not remember this, my mother told me.

 

[Forkbender]

:lol:

Here's another anecdote. When I was around six, my best friend told me Sinterklaas didn't exist. I did not believe him, went home, looked it up in an encyclopedia and calculated that he would be 1473 years old. I told my mother about it and she smiled at both my ignorance and my intelligence.

 

[magickmumu]

I agree with most of your post, but I also noticed that GOD's strategy worked with a lot of people. Lumping all ideas together is something that GOD did in response to the people who did exactly the same by accepting every esoteric idea without looking within themselves for corroboration. I understand why he dislikes people talking about it, because it may work for one person, but if this person starts to talk about it to others and others don't understand that it is a personal thing, it becomes religious dogma.

Stimulating discrimination of good ideas from bad ideas is something that is very hard. How to do it without making judgments? As I see it, GOD just refused to listen to esotericism, because it is not transferable to others and restricts meaning to the person. His fulminations are not so much against the ideas, but against spreading them like they are the ultimate truth.

As I see it he was preaching his own personal truth.

 

[restin]

What lumps esoteric *belief* together in my mind is the abandonment of the seemingly more solid, rational foundation for knowledge and replacing it with something intuition based.

uuuh, don't underestimate intuition. Rational foundation? Well, what is Newtons law based on? Observation. It is a human rule and not a rule of nature. Rational foundation? My common sense is telling me that the earth is flat. I have never seen earth from above. I'd rather believe intuition than a book that claims the truth.

 

[Dantediv86]

Amazing how you people start a topic about GOD and end up talking about astrology/nomy