Fitna (short movie about Islam)

[tryptonaut]

At the heart of christianity and islam is the belief that every believer must recruit new believers and those who are not believers are lesser human beings (or "evil" or whatever).

This is a pretty bold statement. I think that at the heart of every religion there is a mystical experience, that there are many layers beneath the dogmatic surface. Pride (I am better than you) is a surfacesymptom, not part of the core.

Might be a bold statement, but I'm getting the bold statements from believers of dogmatic religions all the time, why can't I make a bold statement (which I pulled out of my ass just like they do - only they can always "prove it" with texts from their dogmatic books)

In my opinion if you do believe in mysticism and spirituality you can find a lot of interesting things in islamic and christian culture - but you can't be a believer in these religions because of all the other bullshit they are binding you to. As soon as you start critizising and thinking on your own you can just as well quit the crap calling yourself a "believer" in these religions. Either you are a believer and believe in the dogma, or you don't. I don't. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the spiritualistic roots of a certain religion.

 

[Forkbender]

Might be a bold statement, but I'm getting the bold statements from believers of dogmatic religions all the time, why can't I make a bold statement (which I pulled out of my ass just like they do - only they can always "prove it" with texts from their dogmatic books)

Because then you are putting yourself on their level.

In my opinion if you do believe in mysticism and spirituality you can find a lot of interesting things in islamic and christian culture - but you can't be a believer in these religions because of all the other bullshit they are binding you to. As soon as you start critizising and thinking on your own you can just as well quit the crap calling yourself a "believer" in these religions. Either you are a believer and believe in the dogma, or you don't. I don't. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the spiritualistic roots of a certain religion.

Criticism & Thinking for yourself are two separate things. If you think for yourself, you don't need to criticize religion, because then you are not dependent on it; if you criticize anything, you are dependent on that something to exist. Think for yourself AND question authority are two distinct things that can harm each other.

I can believe anything in any holy book, as long as I don't take it as a one-layered truth. There is esotericism in every holy book, layers that can be unearthed by those who want to see. But there are too many people too afraid to want to see. I don't blame them, because fear cannot be blamed on anyone.

Dogma is a surface phenomenon that can only be overcome if one is willing to accept it for the time being. Fighting it will not help you, neither will blindly following it. One has to accept it, but be careful at the same time, because one can never assume to know everything there is to know. It doesn't stop at dogma, it starts there.

We all have our own dogma's to overturn and get to know the source of wisdom that is underneath.

 

[HeartCore]

If you think for yourself, you don't need to criticize religion, because then you are not dependent on it; i

Replace the word religion for fascism and notice how your argument looses all ground.

 

[magickmumu]

:shock: This movie is political propaganda, nothing more. Remember this movie is made by a politician. The goal of this movie is to scare.
To make us misstrust our muslim brothers.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

This movie is political propaganda, nothing more. Remember this movie is made by a politician. The goal of this movie is to scare.

That "this movie is political propaganda, nothing more" is not evident from the video itself, at least not to me. I would actually agree with you that some or even most parts of it is political propaganda, or at least tainted by it, but I cannot see how all of it is only that.

Propaganda or not, similar statements found in other scriptures or not, purposefully used to scare us or not, this movie does raise questions other politicians, filmmakers and individuals like you and me rarely ask. Many people don't even know that there are such statements in the Quran.

This movie was posted here by me. I'm not a politician. And I certainly do not wish to scare anyone.

Do I vote for the politician who made this video? Hell no. But unfortunately the political parties I do tend to vote for wish to remain silent on this issue. They never informed me about the problem. They probably don't even understand there is a problem.

 

[Forkbender]

If you think for yourself, you don't need to criticize religion, because then you are not dependent on it;

Replace the word religion for fascism and notice how your argument looses all ground.

That would be the case if religion was equal to fascism. But it is not.

People in our society can generally be non-religious if they choose, without severe penalties.

To not take part in fascism is another story.

I maintain that it is your duty to withstand any total domination, but religion is almost never a total dominator, as it is in essence based on a question of freedom.

 

[Forkbender]

That "this movie is political propaganda, nothing more" is not evident from the video itself, at least not to me. I would actually agree with you that some or even most parts of it is political propaganda, or at least tainted by it, but I cannot see how all of it is only that.

Why would any politician make it obvious that he is using propaganda?

Propaganda or not, similar statements found in other scriptures or not, purposefully used to scare us or not, this movie does raise questions other politicians, filmmakers and individuals like you and me rarely ask. Many people don't even know that there are such statements in the Quran.

I did not see any questions. I saw statements. Which can be countered.

But unfortunately the political parties I do tend to vote for wish to remain silent on this issue. They never informed me about the problem. They probably don't even understand there is a problem.

I think most other parties state the problem in very different terms. This movie is generally appealing to the basic human emotion of fear, which is never a good guide for action.

 

[Telico]

I have lived in a muslim country for about 14 years. And I can assure you that "muslims" that you see in this movie are really hated, criticized, and insulted by every people I knew in this country. I used to have a chat with many people there, from every social background, and believe me, I've learned that "Muslims" that you see on the television are not reflecting the reality at all. People that I used to know were tolerant, respectful, generous and kind, with a great sense of humor. It was incredible, because this people showed me how television could transform all the world's point of view. I mean, I didn't find any guy who was bearded and wanted to kill all the westerners of the world in the name of Allah. Not a trace of these people.

Recently a poll showed that Iranian people are not really against the western civilisation, actually it's not the cas at all : I've seen a documentary about it, and I can assure you that Iranian guys know how to have fun as musch as an average american guy Maybe without alcohol (often with however ) but they really know how to party.

I was invited to a wedding, and I expected that men and women would be placed in separate rooms. It was not the case ! It was in a unique room, men and women, chatting together.

What I want to say is... crap ! This is the most awful movie I've ever seen ! Instead of trying to show people how wrong they are with their preconceived ideas, it adds oil over the fire ! This film promotes hate and racism.

I will read the Quran soon, and I'll see if the statements that have been shown are accurate or not. And even if it was, I think that it doesn't really matters, because muslims showed many times in history that they can leave in total peace and harmony with other religions (Jerusalem, Alhambra etc..)

It's ... to some extent ... our case ! People think that we are junkies, but actually we are psychonauts, which is slighlty different. And if you tell people "Hello, I'm a psychonaut, I take drugs in order to improve myself" people will have a reaction like "Oh God, he takes drugs, he's a junkie, I must stop frequenting this guy". For muslims it's the same issue. They are now affraid to say "Hello, I'm muslim" because they're affraid by people's reaction like "Oh My God, another terrorist, he's probably dangerous and ..."

Preconceived ideas are the worst plague in this world. We must get rid of it.

So long dudes !


PS : Sorry for my syntactical/grammatical mistakes, I'm a french native speaker

 

[Guest]

PS : Sorry for my syntactical/grammatical mistakes, I'm a french native speaker

Shit man, I didn't understand a thing you just written :retard:

(just kidding ofcourse :roll

But I must agree with Fork on the fear being the wrong basis to take action on.
Although Hitler also had obvious propaganda, I'm not comparing Wilders to Hitler, I'm just pointing at the propaganda.
In China there also has been obvious propaganda for years and come to think of it, half the world's goverments (maybe even more) do propagate quite flamboyantly