DMT and Health - Question.

[Synaesthesia]

I've never read or heard of any definate/specific health risks from smoking dmt. Beyond the general issue of inhaling a vapour (or anything) into your lungs, the only problems from dmt would be poor extraction of the drug (solvents/plant matter etc remaining in the substance), but this is a problem with any recreational drug and something that would be solved by legalisation..

Those reports about people being harmed in the previous posts are all about a combination of drugs, not just DMT. MAOI's in particular can cause very harmful/deadly effects if taken unsafely, not by the DMT but other random chemicals that have been ingested, that being other drugs or simply certain things in foods, our stomach enzymes are there for a reason and shouldnt be messed about with unless you or someone you're with know what you're doing and understand the effects.

Im not sure about DMT being produced in the lungs, but its accepted that its produced in significant quantities in the Pineal gland of our brains, most believe its what causes dreaming in REM sleep and near death experiences.

As for mental health, im going to quote Graham Hancock as its the same opinion i have. "If the individual is normal and sane and balanced, they will emerge from the experience normal and sane and balanced." -

I dont believe i've ever been entirely changed by an experience on any drug, more so expanded.

and as for general health. the healthier you are mentally and physically, the happier you are, so it makes sense that it would carry over to any experiences you have.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Im not sure about DMT being produced in the lungs, but its accepted that its produced in significant quantities in the Pineal gland of our brains, most believe its what causes dreaming in REM sleep and near death experiences.

No, it's actually the other way around. It's a confirmed scientific fact that it's produced in the lungs and other organs, but it's part of a theory that it's produced in the pineal gland. Also, the idea that DMT is involved in REM sleep and NDE has of yet not been confirmed.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I disagree very strongly, you actually sound quite patronizing here... no offense but claiming that some realizations are wrong is nothing else than claiming that your realizations are true...

Not my realizations, I wrote "a sober person who has truly realized ultimate truth, during his or her own high-dose trips, or at least some aspects of the truth". That didn't refer to me, but to the people who wrote the different LSD manuals in the late sixties and early seventies, and those who followed in their footsteps. They all came to more or less similar conclusions about the nature of reality. There is a certain universally agreed upon group of ideas amongst those intellectuals who have done high doses of psychedelics under the proper circumstances (what Aldous Huxley describes as the "perennial philosophy", and which Stan Grof describes at length towards the end of his book "LSD Psychotherapy").

And these ideas differ from some of the premature conclusions people come to when they ingest a psychedelic without guidance, ideas which may be inspired by things they read before they had their trips. For example, DaZeD confirmed that he "was reading a lot of buddhist writings at the time of that trip". And not all buddhist teachings or their interpretations are correct or compatible with what is experienced and understood during properly conducted high-dose psychedelic sessions.

I was clearly not talking about myself, because I have no experience yet with properly assisted high-dose psychedelic sessions.

and you also only acquired them by experience. What does it mean "most likely"? are you calculating with probability?

"Most likely", because I was not the one who had that experience or was with him when he had it, and the description provided by DaZeD was limited and subject to interpretation. For example, what exactly did he mean with the word illusion, etc.? Now we know: "with illusion I didn't refer to the classic idea of what an illusion is, it was far more complex then that, but it's just impossible to describe it."

Another person that influences you during a time where you experience an emotional mind-opening (=a trip) is very dangerous, indeed. And if there is an ultimate truth, everyone needs to experience it for himself...

I agree with that, but I wasn't saying anyone should influence you during a trip. All that the guide should do is encourage the person to internalize, to close the eyes and focus on the feelings, sensations, emotions and visions that come up, not resisting any of them. When a person is encouraged that way, there is less likelihood of them spending hours in philosophical thought. If the person undergoing the experience tells the guide that "You know, it's all an illusion..." the guide may tell the person that that's one way to look at it, but that one may also look at it from another point of view, but that for now it's best to just experience, and not try to construe a particular theory. If after the session the person feels depressed because of nihilistic ideas, the guide may point out the flaws in such reasoning.

And this applies to smoked DMT as well (the topic of this thread): if a person comes out with the belief that a divine being has singled him or her out to save the world, the guide may point out that this is a common phenomenon that could lead to serious forms of ego-inflation. It must be stressed, I think, that not all realizations attained through psychedelic experiences are correct and beneficial to the individual or his surroundings, and some feedback from more experienced and learned guides may be quite useful.

 

[restin]

I mostly agree with the second part of your post, but less with the first part...

First of all, there are still disagreements about psychonautism amongst the "big ones" - so Hoffmann didn't really agree with Leary. But that's not the point, I just don't think that we should follow a group of people that found their own realizations. Psychonautism is (for me at least) the experience itself, not what is experienced. It doesn't matter what you experience, that's your individual thing.

So actually I agree with you for a guide that encourages thought....but not someone who leads the trail of thought. Isn't it the same if one reads a Buddhist book before tripping or a book by Watts before tripping? In the end, you are influenced by both.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

First of all, there are still disagreements about psychonautism amongst the "big ones" - so Hoffmann didn't really agree with Leary.

Everyone seems to agree Leary was a maverick. He contributed to psychedelic therapy and research, but also harmed its future progress. You mention Hofmann as not agreeing with Leary. In fact lots of prominent figures don't agree with Leary. The same can be said about other mavericks, like Terence McKenna. When I'm talking about the "big ones", I'm talking about researchers like Albert Hofmann and psychedelic therapists like Stanislav Grof, Abram Hoffer, Blewett & Chwelos, Masters & Houston, Humphrey Osmond, Betty Eisner, Leo Zeff, Myron Stolaroff, Ann Shulgin, Huston Smith etc.

It doesn't matter what you experience, that's your individual thing.

True, but it does matter how you feel afterwards.

So actually I agree with you for a guide that encourages thought....

That's not what I said or meant actually. The guide shouldn't encourage thought but surrender to the internal processes, which tend to transcend words and thus thoughts as well. It's true that very interesting ideas have come forth when intellectuals and scientists took LSD (Huxley, Crick etc.), but the aim should always be surrender to what comes up spontaneously.

Isn't it the same if one reads a Buddhist book before tripping or a book by Watts before tripping? In the end, you are influenced by both.

Yes, there's no difference, though Alan Watts writings may be more relevant to the psychedelic experience (as he was a psychonaut himself) and modern way of thinking. I don't find Alan Watts' interpretation of Zen nihilistic or depressing at all. In fact I find his lectures uplifting and inspiring.

 

[restin]

That's not what I said or meant actually. The guide shouldn't encourage thought but surrender to the internal processes, which tend to transcend words and thus thoughts as well. It's true that very interesting ideas have come forth when intellectuals and scientists took LSD (Huxley, Crick etc.), but the aim should always be surrender to what comes up spontaneously.

Yes, precisely, this is the experience. The worldess, thoughtless experience. You experience what is inside you - but what makes your essence is individual. Realizations about who you are, what you aim etc. are personal and so is the experience.

True, but it does matter how you feel afterwards.

Depends...the farther away the trip is, the smaller the experience gets and the more the interpretation/what you take from it. You will not feel the same as you felt during the trip or right afterwards - there will always be a distance. and DaZed said himself that he isn't really understanding what it really was he realized - it is "only" another viewpoint, a way of thinking that opened, and if taken with respect, it can help you coming further.

Everyone seems to agree Leary was a maverick. He contributed to psychedelic therapy and research, but also harmed its future progress. You mention Hofmann as not agreeing with Leary. In fact lots of prominent figures don't agree with Leary. The same can be said about other mavericks, like Terence McKenna. When I'm talking about the "big ones", I'm talking about researchers like Albert Hofmann and psychedelic therapists like Stanislav Grof, Abram Hoffer, Blewett & Chwelos, Masters & Houston, Humphrey Osmond, Betty Eisner, Leo Zeff, Myron Stolaroff, Ann Shulgin, Huston Smith etc.

I think that their research is important to know HOW psychedelics should be taken but not what you should take with you after the trip.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I think that their research is important to know HOW psychedelics should be taken but not what you should take with you after the trip.

True, but they did have certain aims, like ending psychosomatic or emotional suffering, reducing the fear of death, ending drug addictions and depression, and avoiding undesirable after-effects like flashbacks, suicidal ideation etc.

In the beginning psychedelic therapy was still heavily influenced by the concepts of psychoanalysis, which involves lots of talking between therapist and patient. Later on they discovered there is much more therapeutic potential in internalized experiences, which means the therapists and sitters do very little talking during the peak. Talking mainly takes place before the ingestion of the substance, and towards the end of the experience, and the day(s) following it.

 

[restin]

I would really like to do it, there's no question in that. But of course there are different aims in psychonautism than therapy.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I would really like to do it, there's no question in that. But of course there are different aims in psychonautism than therapy.

Yes, definitely. I generally use the word therapy in a very broad sense though, ranging from solving emotional or physical problems, to the gaining of artistic inspiration, and philosophical or spiritual insights, all of which (and more) are also described in the book "LSD Psychotherapy".

 

[restin]

For artistic inspiration and philosophical insight the therapist must be very very good to not directly influence the experience but only help *digging deeper*

 

[Fiashly]

Im not sure about DMT being produced in the lungs, but its accepted that its produced in significant quantities in the Pineal gland of our brains, most believe its what causes dreaming in REM sleep and near death experiences.

No, it's actually the other way around. It's a confirmed scientific fact that it's produced in the lungs and other organs, but it's part of a theory that it's produced in the pineal gland. Also, the idea that DMT is involved in REM sleep and NDE has of yet not been confirmed.

Can you cite any sources on this?

I think the pineal gland thing is tossed about as fact all of the time as a result of Strassman not being very clear that it is only his theory and not proven fact when he discusses it in his book.

But I have not seen any study that concludes that DMT is actualy produced anywhere in the body.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

If I remember well, Rick said this himself in a recent interview, which you can find here. It's also mentioned in the description of a trailer:

The upcoming documentary based on Dr. Rick Strassman's research on N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), a powerful entheogen, or psychedelic, which is produced in the lungs and other organs. DMT is found naturally in various natural sources, and is closely related to human neurotransmitters such as serotonin and melatonin.

In this blog it says:

DMT occurs naturally in lung and brain tissue, and had been found in human urine, blood, and cerebrospinal fluid.

Oh, here's a good reference, in Science Magazine:

DMT can be produced by enzymes in mammalian lung (11) and in rodent brain (12)

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

For artistic inspiration and philosophical insight the therapist must be very very good to not directly influence the experience but only help *digging deeper*

Though not directly related to artistic inspiration and philosophical insight, I think you'll dig this passage from Stan Grof's Psychology of the Future, page 182, from the chapter 'Psychotherapy and Self-Exploration':

The task of the facilitator or therapist in holotropic therapy is to support the experiential process with full trust in its healing nature, without trying to direct it or change it in any way. The process is guided by the client's own inner healing intelligence. The term therapist is used here in the sense of the Greek therapeutes, which means the person assisting in the healing process, not an active agent whose task is to "fix the client." It is important for the therapist to support the experiential unfolding, even if he or she does not rationally understand it.

 

[DaZeD]

I like how this coversation is going, I personally don't mind if it's offtopic or not, I like the impressions and different ideas you people share.

Although, I personally don't think DMT will ever learn me anything, my thinking patterns aren't changed during a DMT trip, unlike with acid and mushroom trips my mind stays pretty much the same, it does calm down a lot, but I can't think or philosophize when I trip with DMT, it's just a ride I undergo, it speaks to me through feelings, like very warm and embracing feelings, I also feel so very relaxed after the trip ended, I don't know if other people feel this way, if I need to start a new tread about this please let me know, I don't know how the moderation works here, but I don't have a problem with the mix-up of different mindfarts here.

I also agree that NN-DMT is most likely the safest psychedelic one can take, I have'nt had a negative experience with it, I know some people had, but even if you do have a bad trip, it's all over in a short while, not that you are aware of that when you are "out there", it might look like hours, but I allways had very possitive experiences, it's by far my most favorite psychedelic, no side effects, only the smoking part I dislike a lot, I could wash it out some more indeed, but I guess that there's probably allways some amoniak left in it anyway, not sure though, but I have a white extract, so I guess I'm safe there.

 

[afer]

As far as the physical health goes, I doubt that smoking anything is in fact nice for your lungs. And the presence of DMT in lung tissue itself doesn't necessarily mean that it's thought to be absorbed by the lungs. Lots of important chemicals are found in the lungs (angiotensin-1, for example), but very few of them get there from the air we breathe.
A curiosity, many drug experiments conducted on rodents/primates show that the discussed way of administration [smoking] is the least preferred by all species. In fact, it's nearly impossible to force the animal to smoke something directly (the only way is to fill the chamber with smoke).
Yet again it's a matter of relativity...given the extent of air pollution nowadays, downsides of smoking DMT seem really negligible...