Chemical VS Natural

[Goran.Hrsak]

Natural drugs contain alchaloid and chemical one doesnt.Of course you can sintetise alchaloids but I am speaking from the begining of difference 8)

 

[c0sm1c_d4nc3r]

Eventhough I sometimes use chemical drugs I prefer natural in the long run.

 

[Toxica]

Well, I don't know... I wanted to say I like natural drugs first - the nature is closer to human... But in fact I like both.

 

[Entheonaut]

I don't think there's a real difference between chemicals and natural, only that most natural drugs are combinations of different substances reacting and affecting each other, creating a different trip than just 1 active substance/chemical.

A couple of posts back someone compared natural psychedelics with coke or speed. These are totally different not because of natural/chemical, but because coke and speed are "mind-narrowing" and psychedelics are "mind-expanding".

Also I was wondering, someone said that tripping on cacti makes you feel sick and gives a cleansing affect, but doesn't that also happen when taking pure mescaline (not sure about this) ?

btw nice topic, something to discuss 8)

 

[Arecibo]

I know this is an old topic, but i think the following quote is interesting...

Some fascinating studies have been done in Germany where the metabolically active mycelium of some Psilocybe species have been administered diethyltryptamine as a potential diet component. Normally, this mushroom species dutifully converts N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) to psilocin, by introducing a 4-hydroxyl group into the molecule by something that is probably called an indole 4-hydroxylase by the biochemists. You put DMT in, and you get 4-hydroxy-DMT out, and this is psilocin. Maybe if you put Mickey Mouse in, you would get 4-hydroxy-Mickey Mouse out. It is as if the mushroom psyche didn't really care what it was working with, it was simply compelled to do its sacred duty to 4-hydroxylate any tryptamine it came across. It was observed that if you put N,N-diethyltryptamine (DET, not a material found in nature) into the growing process, the dutiful and ignorant enzymes would hydroxylate it to 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (4-HO-DET) a potent drug also not known in nature. This is the title drug of this commentary. What a beautiful burr to thrust into the natural versus synthetic controversy. If a plant (a mushroom mycelium in this case) is given a man-made chemical, and this plant converts it, using its natural capabilities, into a product that had never before been known in nature, is that product natural? What is natural? This is the stuff of many long and pointless essays.


Alexander Shulgin, TiHKAL, 4-HO-DET Entry

 

[forest]

interesting

 

[tryptonaut]

Compare natural opium to chemical LSD. Which one is more spiritually enlightening? Which one is addictive? Which one can ruin your life more easily?

I'd always go for chemical with these two...

 

[phalaris]

Also to me, there is no difference between natural, chemical or synthetic.

Forest mentioned the cleansing effect with natural psycedelics that you can experience.. but to me, the throwing up and nausea oftem overshadows the trip itselfs. I find it difficult to concentrate and learn from the trip while I feel sick, and I personaly feel in the case of mushrooms that I get sick because there are some many unknowns that get a free ride into my system.

sure, mostpart of the plant/shroom is harmless, a small part makes you trip, but another small part could make you sick. So, what I really mean; plant material/natural drugs are not persee better than refined or synthetic drugs.

And about synthetics being fast foods.. I really like that analogy.. for things like mdma, lsd and speed, it can be truely too easy to get.

But what would you think of mescaline crystals, when you do the extraction and purification yourselfs ?.. surely, this would not count as "fast"?..

 

[forest]

with mdma and speed, afterwards i can't smile, like all my happyness is used up. with shrooms i feal great afterwards and do nothing but smile.

and yeah, synthetic is a story on his own, i think, extracted isn't really chemical, right? even though you may need chemicals to extract it.

some cultures believe you have to make sacrafices, and like with yopo, if you can't stand the pain in the nose, they believe you're not ment/worth to trip. and the cleansing. i think there lies a truth in some of those theorie's.

 

[JayBomb]

Honestly... the difference between "chemical" and "natural" is bullshit.

They're currently working, in certain labs, on creating life. They're attempting to create cells with variants of chemicals. Is it possible? It's certainly plausible! Where the fuck do you think life came from? A Tree? Where did a tree come from? Chemicals.

Chemicals are constructions of elements which are constructed atoms which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which are which
are.

And so you see, it doesn't matter. Perhaps your body shouldn't be taking that "chemical", but if you took a bio class you'll know that the mushroom doesn't want you to eat it either!

 

[Tsasil]

with mdma and speed, afterwards i can't smile, like all my happyness is used up. with shrooms i feal great afterwards and do nothing but smile.

This is a completly different discussion, it's mind-narrowing drugs vs. mind-expanding drugs. If you take natural 'speedy' drugs like ginseng, ephedra or guarana you'll feel depleated afterwards too. Those are just to keep you awake and will empty your energy reserves, so naturally you won't find the experience rewarding or anything.

There are plenty of chemical psychadelics, which can give you experiences just as rewarding as with any plant you can eat. It's all about mindset. If you eat a chemical and you're deeply confinced that the experience will be less rewarding because it's not the plant you're eating, of course the experience will be disappointing.

And that's too bad, because if you don't mind eating chemicals you don't have to chew away discusting amounts of nauseating mushrooms or cactii. With synthesized mescaline you'll KNOW it'll work, whilst if you eat a cactus it isn't certain at all you'll get any effect. The amount of mescaline can vary between cactii.

Who cares if the chemical proces of creating a drug is done by the photosynthesis of a plant or by man. The result is often the same; You're gonna view the world as never before.

By the way; The nausea comes with the mescaline. Even with synthesized mescaline you'll have to purge (according to pihkal) :shock:

 

[HeartCore]

Although I agree with most you say, I dont consider MDMA a mind narrowing drug.

 

[Tsasil]

Although I agree with most you say, I dont consider MDMA a mind narrowing drug.

Me neither actually, and after a nice evening of MDMA I don't feel down or anything. A MDMA trip can be as rewarding as shrooming for me. For the sake of the discussion I didn't want to go there.

Even the mid-week downer after MDMA doesn't do any damage to the experience. It's just part of the effect, like puking after eating mescaline.

 

[Forkbender]

After a nice evening of MDMA I don't feel down or anything. A MDMA trip can be as rewarding as shrooming for me. For the sake of the discussion I didn't want to go there.

Even the mid-week downer after MDMA doesn't do any damage to the experience. It's just part of the effect, like puking after eating mescaline.

True.
I never felt miserable after MDMA, although I did feel VERY tired for two or three days. I guess it has to do with the way you take MDMA. When you do it to explore yourself more fully and are able to "let your light shine", the comedown won't be as hard. When you go dancing all night, you feel great, but afterwards you may feel miserable.

*This information might not be entirely correct as it is only something that I've thought about by myself and didn't bother to look up proper information.

 

[HeartCore]

Although I agree with most you say, I dont consider MDMA a mind narrowing drug.

Me neither actually, and after a nice evening of MDMA I don't feel down or anything. A MDMA trip can be as rewarding as shrooming for me. For the sake of the discussion I didn't want to go there.

Even the mid-week downer after MDMA doesn't do any damage to the experience. It's just part of the effect, like puking after eating mescaline.

The first time I had mdma, and it was 100% the pure stuff, I also happened to be on my first rave: Immortality in Amsterdam like 14 years ago. Before that night, I was this shy, silent guy that never approached people etc etc. After one hour I found myself completely engaged on that party with a large group of people that where unknown to me at the time. Really amazing, this experience changed the way I socialize and all for good.

 

[Brewmaster]

Tsasil said "By the way; The nausea comes with the mescaline. Even with synthesized mescaline you'll have to purge (according to pihkal)"

This is simply not true. If you've ever done ayahuasca you know what a purge is. It's not nausea, it's something that sneeks up on you when you're feeling just fine and then allofasudden blllaaaaarrgh!!!. I don't know anything about pihkal or if you've ever done mescaline yourself, but it shouldn't make you sick. Especially not synthetic mesc ( ie microdots ). Peyote, pedro and peruvian will likely make you feel a little queasy because they're such vile and disgusting substances but the mescaline itself is not the culprit. It's the taste and texture similar to pig snot. I grow my own cactus; pedro, peruvian and peyote and have given them out to many, many people and I don't know of anyone who threw up from it ( I haven't actually eaten any of my peyotl tho). It just gives you a heavy feeling in the stomach like you ate too much which eventually goes away. The only time I or any of my posse have felt very ill is when taking an MAOI like syrian rue w/ the cactus. This, by the way doesn't do much for Mescaline and should be avoided. Although, I can definitely see how someone who can't handle a shot of Jack Daniels might not be able to keep the stuff down.

 

[Brewmaster]

As for the topic of this somewhat vintage forum; Natural vs. Synthetic. I firmly believe that mescaline is the greatest, wherever it came from. I grow a lot of natural entheogens including morning glories, rivea corymbosa, datura + belladonna ( not entheogens ), kratom, sinisuichi, salvia, zacatechichi and shrooms but I gotta say that I love my cacti the most. I don't even eat shrooms anymore, I just grow 'em as a hobby and to give to friends. I just feel that mescaline is far superior. I don't trip very often, maybe 3-4 times a year now but nothing compares to an all day therapy session with peruvian torch down by the river. Except huasca. Man cannot create something so powerful as ayahuasca ( except supposedly the natural DMT in our brains ) in a lab. So my vote would be for natural substances. But I just did 2 grams of coke on a Thursday night so who the fuck am I to say.


Wait coke grows on trees right? :retard:

 

[DevXavier]

I don't know anything about pihkal or if you've ever done mescaline yourself, but it shouldn't make you sick. Especially not synthetic mesc ( ie microdots ).

Just for the record: A microdot (as is the normal name for a LSD containing pill) is not able to hold a working amount of mescaline.

Synthetic mescaline is extremely hard to get. Going prices are around 300 € per gram of Mescaline HCl. The crystals are like little yellowish, brownish needles. They smell like rotten eggs.

Synthetic mescaline is not the same as eating a peyote for example. You miss the synergie between a lot of active components. Therefore I believe synthetic mescaline is a waste of money. The cactus as a whole is sacred, not just the mescaline.

Somebody else mentioned something about never knowing how much mescaline is in a cactus. There are some relatively simple extraction methods on the internet. Tada! You know how much mescaline and other active components were in your cactus.

 

[Tsasil]

I haven't had any pure mescaline myself, but I'm willing to try it if it ever crosses my path.

Pihkal is a book by alexander shulgin, a chemist who creates, tests and patents new psychadelic drugs. He created hundreds chemical substances and tested them for psychoactive qualities. According to his book, the nauseating effect lies within the mescalin and according to his trip reports on pure synthesized mescaline, the quality of the trip isn't (much) less. He is reverenced to on erowid.org on almost every drug in their vault.

As for my misuse of the word purge; English is not my first language, I thought it was another word for puking . Never did any ayahuasca, I hope to do it once though. I'm saving it for a period in my live when I have a good reason to do it.

 

[skrudge]

It's the same thing for me. i still have a pack of ayahuasca lying around here in my 'magic box' where I store all my psychoactive herbs and other stuff. I don't think I am ready for it yet, I just bought it in an impulsive action.
I don't see myself doing ayahuasca here in my bedroom when my parent's are downstairs, and i really want someone to be with me the first time. Even if it's just for asking when I'm in the trip what I see and stuff, so they will remember everything I say if I forget it.
Maybe next year, maybe in three years, but not in short notice.

And for the natural vs chemical subject, I'm done with chemicals. Synthetic chemicals I mean. Last summer I did MDMA 3 days in a row, and it's nothing special anymore. It just makes me feel kind of uncomfortable, totally different from when I do mushrooms or any other 'pure' natural substance. Kinda strange though, because I did mdma for a year every weekend and it was totally awesome at that time. I think these things don't have anything to offer me anymore.