Are humans really evolving or are we programmed as other animals??

[toogoodforyou]

Lately there is a lot of scientific/spiritual news saying that we are energy vibrating at certain frequency and we can change the world by using our own energy. So basically if everything is energy there is no difference at the core of all forms and everything comes out of one source although there may be external differences. In that case animals in the wild are energy as well, and these animals threaten, attack, kill and even eat each other. If those particular energies that we term as 'animals' in the wild which are as natural as us behave in that particular manner, humans can behave in a similar manner as well. As there are a variety of animals in the wild with different traits, humans come with a variety of traits as well. For example a tiger eats a deer, and that is its innate behavior. What if similarly in the human world some people will step on, kill, destroy and overpower others. Isn't there a possibility that 'energies' in human form are programmed that way?? One is timid like a deer and one can be dangerous like a tiger. We are all energies unconsciously or consciously playing the role of the 'tiger' or the 'deer' in this game of life. The stronger (not necessary physically) animal will usually dominate the weaker animal. Is the 'negative' behavior of humans thus justified?? Or does every human have to potential to be a Buddha?? Can all the energy in the 'human' form live in love and awareness or will there be a continuous threat for survival??

Basically survival in the city at present has a subtle similarity to survival in the wild. Isn't there a chance we might be more 'intelligent' but our behavior will remain uncertain despite of it. Since the law of attraction applies to all energies, it should apply to the energies manifested in the animal form as well. Then why is the death of a baby deer by a tiger not in the control of the deer?? Some animal is definitely going to get eaten up every day. Does this disprove the law of attraction?? Maybe your thoughts are not manifesting the future but what occurs in the future takes place in your mind at the present moment.

On one hand we can say humans are evolving as i see less prejudices, less evils, less problems than what we faced earlier but at the same time we see nuclear weapons being manufactured at the cost of billions of dollars using up precious resources while there are millions deaths due to lack of food in developing countries. Maybe this means there cannot be only positivity in this universe, but it will exist simultaneously with negativity and the balance of both the energies is necessary.

These are purely my thoughts and perceptions, I'd be really glad if you guys can share your views on this topic/issues.

 

[ararat]

in defense of animals, they only tend to kill if they are hungry, i.e. they need it, or if the feel massively threatened. humans also kill for whatever wicked reason they find, some even kill for fun, in that sense we are even worse than animals. with animals, their life-energy is allowed to be expressed freely (or so it seems with wild animals). with humans it is not always so. most people are quite crippled in the sense that they cannot (allow themselves to) express their energy freely, be it through sex, creativity or general aliveness. some tend to be not apt for such a damped life, and their energy will overflow destructively, in just the same way a straightened river overflows and wreaks havoc. straighten rivers and they will overflow, straighten societies/people and they will overflow.

to me it indeed seems that people are beginning to awaken more and more. so many are getting fed up with working at pointless jobs to buy stuff they don't need, many are getting into meditation, millions smoke weed (which gives you some headspace to contemplate things), generally I keep meeting more and more people who ask questions. sure, many are still completely robotized, but I'm sure even among them there are people who had glimpses of a shinier reality.
what really seems intimidating is the helplessness of the individual, if anything is a block to real systemic change, it will be this. but even then, I see a lot of ecovillages springing up, with the people living in communities there, growing their own food, helping each other etc. some communities have psychodrama circles, in which single individuals share themselves/their feelings with the rest of the community, effectively making themselves vulnerable, which invites a lot of empathy, given that the right people are there.

personally I am optimistic, I cannot afford to be pessimistic. some change must come, I just hope it comes sooner rather than later, with not too much violence in between.

 

[toogoodforyou]

in defense of animals, they only tend to kill if they are hungry, i.e. they need it, or if the feel massively threatened. humans also kill for whatever wicked reason they find, some even kill for fun, in that sense we are even worse than animals. with animals, their life-energy is allowed to be expressed freely (or so it seems with wild animals). with humans it is not always so. most people are quite crippled in the sense that they cannot (allow themselves to) express their energy freely, be it through sex, creativity or general aliveness. some tend to be not apt for such a damped life, and their energy will overflow destructively, in just the same way a straightened river overflows and wreaks havoc. straighten rivers and they will overflow, straighten societies/people and they will overflow.

As you said animals kill when they are hungry or threatened, thus they are putting their own needs above the animal they are eating. Can't we compare this to the current corporate world where the 'stronger' human is exploiting the 'weaker' human to attain his goals by using currency as a medium of control, the powerful human just has a bigger need than the common people. If an animal can give priority to its own need over the life of another animal, doesn't it justify the need of a particular human to take up more resources than other humans at the expense of somebody's hard work. I'm wondering if humans can outgrow this behavior and really evolve and grow out of this.

I totally agree that repressing sex, creativity or general aliveness results in destructive tendencies though.

to me it indeed seems that people are beginning to awaken more and more. so many are getting fed up with working at pointless jobs to buy stuff they don't need, many are getting into meditation, millions smoke weed (which gives you some headspace to contemplate things), generally I keep meeting more and more people who ask questions. sure, many are still completely robotized, but I'm sure even among them there are people who had glimpses of a shinier reality.

Yes, people are beginning to awaken more and more but the pointless jobs you are talking about are not so pointless after all. We are an interdependent society and production of goods and services is necessary to fulfill our basic and higher needs without which survival would become impossible. I mean this is the age where if you need meat or vegetables its easily available at the grocery store, if you need a computer it can be delivered at your place in a couple of days if ordered online and people are working hard to ensure that our needs are fulfilled. Basically everything is available at our fingertips and to sustain the production and services we need the 9-5 job system which is inevitable.

However i do believe work life can be enhanced by improving job conditions, fair wages etc. Also, people need to get a life outside their job, everybody is too focused on ONLY the financial aspect of their life which makes life robotic as your said. If more people awaken to this and focus on creative aspects of life like art, music, dance, sculpture, movies, drawing, sex, traveling (exotic locations), nature etc. it would really add richness to their life. One can grow endlessly in life from one peak to another if the person in conscious and the doors in his mind are open.

what really seems intimidating is the helplessness of the individual, if anything is a block to real systemic change, it will be this. but even then, I see a lot of ecovillages springing up, with the people living in communities there, growing their own food, helping each other etc. some communities have psychodrama circles, in which single individuals share themselves/their feelings with the rest of the community, effectively making themselves vulnerable, which invites a lot of empathy, given that the right people are there.

Yes, i think its amazing ecovillages are springing up and so on, i personally know one psychonaut who is doing organic farming in the outskirts of my city. But along with this we need more psychedelic thinking, meditative psychonauts like ourselves to be a part of the system from the inside and make that change happen. We need this to happen in fields of science, medicine, technology, psychology etc. and slowly i see this happening all around.

personally I am optimistic, I cannot afford to be pessimistic. some change must come, I just hope it comes sooner rather than later, with not too much violence in between.

Personally i am all for a optimistic but a realistic approach for life. At times for the change to happen some destruction might be necessary!

 

[toogoodforyou]

Another query i had for you guys. Law of attraction says the more love you give out the more positivity, harmony and love you attract in your own life then how Mafia leaders/Terrorist Leaders/Heroin or Meth and other megalomaniacs attract such a massive amount of money?? These are the scum of society.

 

[Lotre]

I think that, according to the law of attraction, when you give out love it is logic that what you get is not money. I mean you would get what you need to be more loving and stuff. Money is dirty and covered with debt and blood.

 

[Crimzen]

mate, you're putting human ideas and concepts onto wild animals
you're thinking about it in the reverse order, we are animals, we're not different in that regard to any other animal
however we have the (possibly/seemingly) unique ability to be conscious of our actions and we have developed a much stronger sense of 'emotion' than you could say any other species of animal and so we feel empathy for those who we would hurt or kill and this serves as a repulsive force stopping us from committing violence and whatnot
However the majority or animals on this planet have no need of and therefore have not developed such 'senses'
We of course still retain some level of instinct, being animal after all and so most of us still have that kill or be killed concept within us
Its a strange thing to relate the concept of everything being a vibration of energy with positive or negative emotional energy, i think in this case the definition of 'energy' is different for the 2 separate concepts, considering both types of energy as a physical presence i would say that they wouldn't interact

and as for;

As you said animals kill when they are hungry or threatened, thus they are putting their own needs above the animal they are eating. Can't we compare this to the current corporate world where the 'stronger' human is exploiting the 'weaker' human to attain his goals by using currency as a medium of control, the powerful human just has a bigger need than the common people. If an animal can give priority to its own need over the life of another animal, doesn't it justify the need of a particular human to take up more resources than other humans at the expense of somebody's hard work.

Animals aren't "putting their own needs above the animal they are eating" they aren't making any conscious thought on the matter at all so how could they possible put their own needs above or below anything?
I dont think its productive to compare the natural instinct of a predator like an eagle killing and eating its prey to survive everyday with fat corporate humans who have more than enough. The reason we 'WANT' more is because we lack something else and are trying to 'fill the void'
That something else is usually a connection to the world around us, or real love, nature or any plethora of personal reasons
those who would manipulate will promote the use of money and useless items as replacements to fill our gaping holes

the powerful human doesnt have any stronger need than the common man, they just usually have a bigger hole to fill
greed and domination of man are not justifiable in my book

 

[ophiuchus]

in response to the OP:

For example a tiger eats a deer, and that is its innate behavior. What if similarly in the human world some people will step on, kill, destroy and overpower others.

Is the 'negative' behavior of humans thus justified?? Or does every human have to potential to be a Buddha?? Can all the energy in the 'human' form live in love and awareness or will there be a continuous threat for survival??

my opinion is that, yes, all of humanity is justified, because we are animals. at the same time, we are growing an awareness that is now budding, and this presents us with an alternative path. perhaps a higher path, or a lower one, depending on the point of view. regardless, the fact of the matter remains that we are nuturing more and more that alternative option, the option of peace. the outcome of this cannot be predicted at this time, because we have yet to see how far humanity will take the ideal. but the possibility is there, the probablility is there.

Then why is the death of a baby deer by a tiger not in the control of the deer?? Some animal is definitely going to get eaten up every day. Does this disprove the law of attraction??

i dont think so. why do people get hit by cars? animals are on an entirely different plane of awareness, so i don't think it is productive to try to appropriate their actions for our models. our models are very specific to the nature of our consciousness. in my opinion animals have a level of understanding that is beyond ours in some regards.

"Some animal is definitely going to get eaten up". the deer know this. the predators know this. that is why things are the way they are. they are smarter than we give them credit for. predators only go after the weak, ever wonder why that is? if the predators only went for the strongest animals, not only would it would cost them much more energy, therefore negating the purpose, but also, there would be no strong, healthy prey to produce quality prey and ensure their food source remains. the prey know this too. they offer up their weakest in a situation like this. such logic doesn't make sense to us because of our conditioning, our 'political correctness', but it is the smartest and most efficient thing to do. both sides want this, so if anything i think it reinforces the law of attraction.

Maybe your thoughts are not manifesting the future but what occurs in the future takes place in your mind at the present moment.

i like that. i think it's closer to the truth, though it is not truth itself.

 

[ophiuchus]

straighten rivers and they will overflow, straighten societies/people and they will overflow.

i like that too.

the powerful human just has a bigger need than the common people

this is 'needs' versus 'wants'. they cannot be compared as such.

However i do believe work life can be enhanced by improving job conditions, fair wages etc. Also, people need to get a life outside their job, everybody is too focused on ONLY the financial aspect of their life which makes life robotic as your said. If more people awaken to this and focus on creative aspects of life like art, music, dance, sculpture, movies, drawing, sex, traveling (exotic locations), nature etc. it would really add richness to their life. One can grow endlessly in life from one peak to another if the person in conscious and the doors in his mind are open.

i agree with this wholeheartedly with the exception of travel. this is a very wasteful and damaging system the way it is. i think that much of this can and will need to be changed in order to integrate this well. it causes the desire to earn a lot of money, when the travel itself is way overcharged, not to mention all the pollutants involved... it has goodness in it, but it's potential to be great has yet to be tapped. the others are more or less free and can be self generated, so i believe that they hold a more versatile and beneficial place in society.

"eco-villages" <3

 

[Gloria]

Good share! Thank you so much for sharing this post. Your views truly open my mind.
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[drizzit]

i know nature hates monoculture's (including humans/animals although we're not plants. lack of a better word) that's why we do things that hert ourselves and others. idk i think that's why there's murders and mental illness. i feel like killing myself and the rest of the world alot but then i calm down an don't wanna do all that work... i feel regardless of what an individual does someone somewhere will not approve. meaning we will never truly coexist in mind. because someone somewhere including myself will think there point of view is right. but iv tried to distinguish the difference between animals and humans and the only thing i can find is humans think vary far ahead and of the what ifs compared to animals. i wish all animals where smart like D&D how theirs so many different races

 

[toogoodforyou]

Voir la pièce jointe 7881

"Every morning in Africa, When the Sun rises,
A deer awakens, Knowing it has to outrun the fastest Lion,
Or, be hunted to death...

But... When the Sun rises,
A lion awakens, Knowing it has to outrun the slowest deer,
Or, be starved to death...

It does not matter whether you are a deer or lion,
When the Sun rises,
Better be running at your best!"



This image gives an idea of what I'm trying to convey. We're like the lion and the deer in this world at present, someone's loss is someone's gain. Can we live as modern buddha's with technology or will there be a constant threat for survival in this rat race?? Although we're projecting a future utopia and awakening, it has not happened till now, maybe life will continue to be a game whether you're awake or not

 

[ophiuchus]

ones loss does not have to be and does not necessarily mean someone elses gain. it's just our fucked economy which promotes as much profit as possible. if we all offered services instead of being lazy consumers, we would go a LONG way in dealing with this issue...

 

[ophiuchus]

i think we need to push forward on things like ecovillages and local economies and trade to follow through into the next step in our evolution...

 

[toogoodforyou]

this is 'needs' versus 'wants'. they cannot be compared as such.

One person's needs may be another person's wants. One may be complacent staying in an apartment a 3rd world country, another will only be happy in a villa with air conditioning. Although basic needs are all common, beyond that it gets slightly subjective. Someone's thinking may be on the lines of "Why should i give up my hard earned comforts to share resources with people who are overpopulating the world with multiple children??" You see this a lot in third world countries, resources are falling short but the poor people are giving birth to too many kids.

i agree with this wholeheartedly with the exception of travel. this is a very wasteful and damaging system the way it is. i think that much of this can and will need to be changed in order to integrate this well. it causes the desire to earn a lot of money, when the travel itself is way overcharged, not to mention all the pollutants involved... it has goodness in it, but it's potential to be great has yet to be tapped. the others are more or less free and can be self generated, so i believe that they hold a more versatile and beneficial place in society.

True, travel can be wasteful and damage the system but anybody can take small holidays near his or her hometown to get away from a monotonous routine. There are scenic/adventure/party destinations near almost every city, which you can travel to by car in a group or alone to unwind. Plus, from personal experience I've noticed traveling to 'exotic' destinations really 'wakes you up'. What i mean is that there is this certain awareness and exposure you get by visiting foreign places, you realize 'your world' is not the only one, there are a variety of 'worlds' out there in which people live in different ways than your own. It can expand a person's vision and attitude, plus it encourages a multicultural society.

Maybe frequency of foreign travel should reduce, so you can save resources

ones loss does not have to be and does not necessarily mean someone elses gain.

Unfortunately that is what is occurring in our system to a certain extent. Business' are giving less and taking more, hence the excess profit system, although they may justify their exploitation by saying they were the one who had the balls and innovations to make and offer the product. Monopoly destroys other business' and makes only a few companies successful. You pay less to the employees and earn more profits, which again proves "one's loss is another's gain"

i think we need to push forward on things like ecovillages and local economies and trade to follow through into the next step in our evolution...

You have a point there. As i said earlier, we need ecovillages which also promote medicine, energy saving technology and innovation. I get the idea eco-villages are mainly to reduce the carbon footprint and support eco-friendly production, but we also need cellphones, computers and other technology to survive. Ecovillages need to touch a variety of technical & non-technical fields to give competition to the current coporate system. To be honest they might be already doing what I said, I'm not too familiar with eco-villages, excuse my ignorance. I only know one eco-friendly farmer in my city

 

[ararat]

the thing with "more for me is less for you" is that it lies not in our nature to be like this, I am convinced that it is more so a product of our economic system and to change the general attitude of "more for me is less for you" we need to change the money system. if we had a sensible, sane system, the opposite would be the rule, rather than the exception.
we hold back and store money mostly because we are concerned for our security, it is much better to have 1000&#8364; on the bank (it gets even more there, thanks to interest) rather than have ten people owe you 100&#8364;.
if money would have negative interest on it, it would join the ranks of umbrellas and bread, because it would lose its value over time, making it similarly stupid to hold onto it as it would be with 20 loafs of bread. one would be much better off by giving the bread away and strengthen relationships with your community rather than letting it rot. with money, it would be better to have ten people owe you 100&#8364; rather than let your 1000&#8364; detoriate on your bank account.

in that system, more for me would be more for you, since sharing is encouraged, and security won't be a matter of money anymore, but more so how much you share.

but alas, right now, with many things, more for me is less for you. more joy for me will be more joy for you, though, but ultimately it seems to me that money as it is at the moment colors much of my everyday experience in its light if I am unconscious. it is a mindset of scarcity, which is entirely superficial and unfounded.

 

[toogoodforyou]

^

I agree with you on most of the points, but I think of money more as a tool and a medium of exchange, store. It's similar to a hammer, it can be used to create wonderful things or for destruction, it depends on the intention, mentality and level of awakening of the wielder. Besides, if people want to hoard they'll find methods to do so even if the money system does not exist, their mentality has to change.

In the current economic system you need money in the bank for emergency purposes. Example, if you're sick or somebody you love has a terrible illness, you will need money for medical expenses urgently, this is when saved money is useful. Collecting money from 10 people who owe you would be a big hassle during an emergency.

I think that the current economic system reflects the mentality of majority of the people at present, since it's formed by them. Maybe one day everybody will evolve and live in love, peace, harmony, meditation while enjoying technology, arts, creativity, sex etc. That will be the time when we won't require money at all cause every person's needs will be fulfilled and people would be living in bliss and trust without trying to get one up over the other. Imagine if you are no longer restricted to a particular family and the entire world is living in love, where you can have unlimited relationships sexual or loving, nobody would want to hoard anything then. But this is just a future utopia I'm projecting, something similar may happen or may not happen

 

[ararat]

I agree that the money is a tool, but its mechanics and nature are not neutral at all, as it would be in the case of a hammer. the tool itself has a tendency that pulls people in whether they want to or not (largely due to inbuilt interest and the resulting debt - enslavement). so I don't think that the economic system reflects the mentality of the majority of the people, but the other way round: the people reflect the mentality of the economic system, which took a life of its own.


on the one hand, if the money system is a reflection of the mentality of the majority, we should have arrived at it by some sort of democratic process, active or passive, but that wasn't the case as far as I know. I don't know who decided on the system, but I'm pretty sure that it was a small circle of elites who did so.
on the other hand the tendency to take interest seems modeled along the lines of the logic of separate self, emphasizing self-aggrandizement and separation, rather than sharing and connection building.

it seems like a chicken and egg problem, but my gut tells me that the system emphasizes the tendency of self-aggrandizement and separation. take a look at top business and bank executives: most of them are perfectly narcissist, and it seems that the rise of narcissism in our culture is largely due to the fact that our economic system favors those who act mostly, if not only, on their own behalf, not on that of the community, nature or life in general.
I think with a moneysystem that does not favor self-aggrandizement, but much rather connection building, sharing and the preservation and even restoration of the natural world we'd be on a highway of evolution. maybe it will happen, maybe it won't.
money is an abstract thing, and as such it can become the agent of anything. right now it is the agent of a monstrous pathology, which works to create exactly the mental habitat that it needs for its proliferation. it could be the agent of beauty, of community, of enough, not of lack and acquisition.

 

[Mrjelly]

i like that too.


this is 'needs' versus 'wants'. they cannot be compared as such.



i agree with this wholeheartedly with the exception of travel. this is a very wasteful and damaging system the way it is. i think that much of this can and will need to be changed in order to integrate this well. it causes the desire to earn a lot of money, when the travel itself is way overcharged, not to mention all the pollutants involved... it has goodness in it, but it's potential to be great has yet to be tapped. the others are more or less free and can be self generated, so i believe that they hold a more versatile and beneficial place in society.

"eco-villages" <3

Travel is an essential part of becoming aware on a global level, I have done it extensively and see the positive effects it has on my life. Another aspect to travel is that as we move about we exchange our properties and receive properties from others. this could be thoughts and ideas. Travel has been and will always be how advancements happen in science, philosophy, and sociology. If we do not have positive and negative interactions with other groups of people we grow entrenched in a stagnant controlled environment that is counter productive to change. I have spent a large part of my life living outside the U.S. it becomes amazingly clear from spending time on the outside looking in what is going on. I can thank travel for that! If a persons main argument for travel not being a major part of society is greenhouse gas emissions, you need to get out of the developed world. Spend some time in Asia. The airplanes that are hauling travelers from one place to another are far less polluting than the transportation methods being used to transport food and people in these countries. It is crazy when you walk down the street and see smog so thick it looks like fog. I have also lived in L.A. and it is a 100 times worse here.

If you want to create environmentally safe ways to travel stop the oil companies from buying all the patents on new technology that they deem harmful to their industry. IMHO travel is essential to progress, it allows great thinkers to mingle. This forum is a perfect example of travel and its necessities. If you look back through time all the greats wrote letters back and forth but in many cases they actually traveled to spend time working alongside of one another and that was when all the magic happened!

I do love the thoughts on this forum, even if I don't agree I like having my mind open and working! Thank you all!

 

[ophiuchus]

^ i agree with this, i never said that travel wasn't good. in fact: "it has goodness in it, but it's potential to be great has yet to be tapped" "i think that much of this can and will need to be changed in order to integrate this well. it causes the desire to earn a lot of money, when the travel itself is way overcharged, not to mention all the pollutants involved" this is regards to "people need to get a life outside their job", so i maintain that travel, in my opinion, remain on the bottom of the list, when compared to: art, music, dance, sculpture, movies, drawing, or sex, even though i still personally advocate it. you mirror my other thoughts of it pretty closely.

One person's needs may be another person's wants. One may be complacent staying in an apartment a 3rd world country, another will only be happy in a villa with air conditioning. Although basic needs are all common, beyond that it gets slightly subjective. Someone's thinking may be on the lines of "Why should i give up my hard earned comforts to share resources with people who are overpopulating the world with multiple children??" You see this a lot in third world countries, resources are falling short but the poor people are giving birth to too many kids.

this still does not illustrate that somebody with more money "needs more" than somebody without money. also, this:"we also need cellphones, computers and other technology to survive" is not an illustration of need. a need is something fundamental to life. we've lived without technology for thousands of years. i don't mean to say it has no place in our society, but calling it a NEED, is definitely a misnomer. i agree with pretty much everything else you say.

the thing with "more for me is less for you" is that it lies not in our nature to be like this, I am convinced that it is more so a product of our economic system and to change the general attitude of "more for me is less for you" we need to change the money system.


...but ultimately it seems to me that money as it is at the moment colors much of my everyday experience in its light if I am unconscious. it is a mindset of scarcity, which is entirely superficial and unfounded.

i like this a lot.