All Roads Lead To Prison

[Schwanke668]

The only thing that comes close in my mind to being 'truly' new is the search for within, from within. That is the deep searching in Taoism.

I won't agree with this because there is nothing new or even radical about the Tao.

Ok then I will rephase this and say that 'compared to western thinking'. That is that Taoism is only now making its way into western thinking and becoming an increasing serious aspect of it. (As opposed to the companies that slap Yin-Yang's on their digestion supplents cand call it 'balance' lol.)

[quote:3sosu79q]its the search for within from within that will solve the worlds problems. Not trying to change things from the outside.

I don't agree with this. I agree that this will lead to personal enlightenment but it won't save the world. Those that are inclined to searching for within from within are a minority of the peoples who make up the global population. In my experience the majority of people are so entwined with the outside that they will never search the inside no matter how often and how many preach to them.[/quote:3sosu79q]

OK well then I will rephase this and say. "Has the greatest chance'. If you look at what you wrote you didnt actually write in something that WOULD help just wrote out something that wouldnt. So whats left is nothing. So I will say that Tao is better then nothing and better then everything we have so far even if it will never be enough. I would rather hold on to the hope of Tao changing the world then to accept that the world probably really is hopeless.

If nothing else it MIGHT be arguable that enough Tao based spiritual centers were formed in a certain area you could have a quazi commune style living arangement in that area kind of like the art communities of new york or 'china towns' or 'jewish hills' and so forth.

 

[ophiuchus]

The only thing that comes close in my mind to being 'truly' new is the search for within, from within. That is the deep searching in Taoism.

I won't agree with this because there is nothing new or even radical about the Tao.

Ok then I will rephase this and say that 'compared to western thinking'. That is that Taoism is only now making its way into western thinking and becoming an increasing serious aspect of it. (As opposed to the companies that slap Yin-Yang's on their digestion supplents cand call it 'balance' lol.)

[quote:xw59ns0m]
[quote:xw59ns0m]its the search for within from within that will solve the worlds problems. Not trying to change things from the outside.

I don't agree with this. I agree that this will lead to personal enlightenment but it won't save the world. Those that are inclined to searching for within from within are a minority of the peoples who make up the global population. In my experience the majority of people are so entwined with the outside that they will never search the inside no matter how often and how many preach to them.[/quote:xw59ns0m]

OK well then I will rephase this and say. "Has the greatest chance'. If you look at what you wrote you didnt actually write in something that WOULD help just wrote out something that wouldnt. So whats left is nothing. So I will say that Tao is better then nothing and better then everything we have so far even if it will never be enough. I would rather hold on to the hope of Tao changing the world then to accept that the world probably really is hopeless.

If nothing else it MIGHT be arguable that enough Tao based spiritual centers were formed in a certain area you could have a quazi commune style living arangement in that area kind of like the art communities of new york or 'china towns' or 'jewish hills' and so forth.[/quote:xw59ns0m]

schwanke, the point is, that suggestion is one sided. we must do EVERYTHING we can to change things, not drop the thing that works to fix the thing that's broken. then the other thing will be uncontrollable again. we (as a race) have more than 2 arms, we have billions upon billions, nothing should be dropped to pursue anything else. CHANGE ON ALL FRONTS!

 

[ophiuchus]

Look around you for Christ's sake. Every aspect of the system has failed. Our government has no real, long-term solutions... As Zezt mentioned, they just feed us a bunch of propaganda, take all our money, and tell us everything will be fine. Things are FAR from fine. The truth is that NO ONE in this world really has any idea about anything, so when some group goes off on some obsessive, delusional rampage and tries to force me to join in, I'm going to be rather inclinded to object. This is the point entirely. The system is batshit insane. Those running it are psychopaths. If you were out in the streets and some murderous psychopath came upto you and said that you're either going to help him kill everyone on that block or he's going to kill you, what would you do?

It all comes down to whether you want to be complicit and an accomplice in someone else's insanity. Personally, I don't think we're ever going to help anyone if we do that.

You guys seem to act like you can stay neutral and try to reason with the psychopath... Good fucking luck with that one.

im not going to try and tell you "the point that you're missing." i think it's insinuative. and i recognize that we are all currently at different points on the (emotional) wheel if you will. but also, because on these points i will AGREE with you, but that is NOT to say that the system is not balancing itself. truthfully, that is your own subjective interpretation of the colorless facts, because you are emotional (currently negative) over your trouble. (and again im terribly sorry for you.)

so we say "how so" is the government in balance? time is an expression, a movement. by this definition nothing is EVER staying in the same place. the thing to remember is that BIG change happens on a different timescale from small change. big being slower, obviously, and small being faster, respectively. so, in lieu of this, consider with me, bleeding, as you say. does it help you live longer to allow your mind to enter an unreceptive form, and also hatred for the world around you? does it help to make the world your enemy? freak out and run around like a chicken with it's head cut off, ie forget that you are a PART of the sytem because it hurt you? because it can also help you. excessive movement(emotion) will only make you bleed out faster. try to find the metaphorical way for the system to treat your wounds. because the system is equally designed for both. even if it's not being used for both equally at this time.

I think the thing that both of you are missing entirely is that the system is not one of balance, it has literally ripped it's own insides out and is now bleeding profusely. How anyone could even claim that the current system we have is one of free markets and equilibrium in action just baffles my mind.

anyways, not to get distracted in metaphor or emotional responses. let me ask you, propose to you, a piece of logic. if it can be assumed the we are NOT in a fixed state(time only moves, is NEVER fixed). then to be "in perfect balance" is impossible in real life, as "perfect balance" is a fixed state. so then, the "act"(expression of time) of balancing (again, dealing with time), balancing, itself, is the only thing that we can have. and so in this respect i think we are perfectly in balance. as in, perfectly inside the act of balancing. the concept of what it means to balance.

americans (english speakers) often get confused in that, the english language deals often with fixed states. in almost any other language, one doesn't say that "there is life". one may only say that "there is living"

 

[Schwanke668]

schwanke, the point is, that suggestion is one sided. we must do EVERYTHING we can to change things, not drop the thing that works to fix the thing that's broken. then the other thing will be uncontrollable again. we (as a race) have more than 2 arms, we have billions upon billions, nothing should be dropped to pursue anything else. CHANGE ON ALL FRONTS!

Thank I missed something. I was trying to say that Taoism is a state of mind that fluctuates within any system. Apply pure Taoism to any situation and you will find the perfect counterpart to the part of that situation that brings that situation back into balance.

So if you can reach Taoist-Nirvanna (lol) then you can reach perfect balance within your situation regardless of what it is. Get everyone to that position and ultimately the entire system balances itself.

Now keep in mind a variety of things:

1) I am not saying to drive out other forces or situations. I am saying to ADD Taoism to the situation. You can be Taoist Christian or a Taoist Jew, Muslim, Satanist, Whatever. Taoism is an awareness and oneness of life and is religiously, socially and politically neutral.

2) Taoism is all about finding the balance that counter balances the current situation to move it into "Taoist-Nirvanna" (lol, again). So if we have one part of the country with too much of this and another part of the country with too much of that and the two parts of the country are going to positively improve from trading then if there are Taoist-Centered people in both parts of the country those 'too muches' will begin to flow back and forth and begin to balance.

In Taoist-Nirvanna (lol! 3.0!) perfect balance of ALLLLL things is achieved. Mind, Body, Spirit, Reality. Not just theology/philosophy/viewpoints.

Of course Taoist-Nirvanna does not exist and cannot exist because the Tao that can be named is not the True Tao and so clearly it isnt Nirvanna. (But then again we name the True Tao by calling it Tao so does that mean that Tao doesnt actually exist at all? )

But hey. I can only do so much with human language lol and I don't think anyone on here would understand me if I wrote in tongues lol. But hey. To that I say:

"Kala-Kafeelika!"

 

[ophiuchus]

its the search for within from within that will solve the worlds problems. Not trying to change things from the outside.

this is more along the lines of the one-sidedness i was referring to.

 

[itsscience]

so we say "how so" is the government in balance? time is an expression, a movement. by this definition nothing is EVER staying in the same place. the thing to remember is that BIG change happens on a different timescale from small change. big being slower, obviously, and small being faster, respectively.

+1+1+1+1

Time is in constant flux as are those who move through it. Social change happens much like a pendulum swings and this can be seen in the evolution of human society. At one extreme arc of the pendulum's swing we had the austerity of the times of the inquisition where everything was evil and the only good was abstinence, praying and bread and water, nakedness was evil as was pleasure. I believe the pendulum has swung to the other end of the scale in current times, sexual promiscuity, nudity on TV, the pursuit of pleasure (the Gordon Geckos if you will). Like pendulums the arc will slowly get less and less and the extremes will become closer together. As Allusion says we'll never get perfect equilibrium but we will get closer and closer to it. Big change happens very slowly.

 

[Schwanke668]

its the search for within from within that will solve the worlds problems. Not trying to change things from the outside.

this is more along the lines of the one-sidedness i was referring to.

I think you are misunderstanding me then. I see the search for within from within as being a stones throw ripple in a pond. As we search for within from within what we learn resonates out of ourselves out into the rest of reality in some form or another.

We are having these conversations for example and we are changing each other. Mayve hardening some ares and softening others but its impossible to avoid being changed by something that is presented to you.

As such our searches for within from within are changing how we think and as such how we interact with the rest of society.

Think of the changes that would happen in society if some how magically several key big wallstreet bankers suddenly had revelation and jumped 80% closer to understanding Tao at its fullness. I DONT think they would give up everything they made and go join a monestary or whatever its called in Taoism. I think they would find more 'real' an 'fluid' and 'dynamic' markets to invest in and more then likely they would NOT be what WE would invest in because THEY would know the situation of those markets far better then we do/would.

I dont think its one sided. Tao has no sides. The search for Tao is the perfect example of sidelessness.

 

[Charlie Prime]

People have been afraid to choose sides, hovering somewhere in the middle, maintaining the status quo, but the reality is that all roads lead to prison.

That is not true. There is a growing Freedom Movement in the world. The immorality of aggression is becoming apparent.

Pay your tax to your oppressors and then go live you life as best you can. Don't ruminate on it.

 

[Schwanke668]

People have been afraid to choose sides, hovering somewhere in the middle, maintaining the status quo, but the reality is that all roads lead to prison.

That is not true. There is a growing Freedom Movement in the world. The immorality of aggression is becoming apparent.

Pay your tax to your oppressors and then go live you life as best you can. Don't ruminate on it.

Funny enough. Thats biblical. The Jews were being oppressed by the romans and they asked Jesus if they should pay taxes and he asked what was on the roman coin and they said "Ceasar" at which point he said give Ceasar what is ceasars. Why the hell cant I spell Ceaser

Anyway. Point being is in the general sense fight the power doesnt work because for any 'initiative' to work you need a specific cause. And 'freedom from everything' doesnt work. Freedom from slavery worked because slavery was obvios. But now adays everyone is trying to be free from everything and there is no focus no 'spirit' to go with it.

Start small. Get everyone to stick to freedom in pscyhedelics or something. Get the drug laws changed. Then go from there. Dont try and change everything all at once, it wont work. Its like trying to rebuild a car by pulling all the bolts and nuts and screws out at once without actualy removing any parts. Then when you bump it it will just collapse in a pile of mess.

 

[Crimzen]

sun tzu said if you can make your enemy fight on multiple fronts then you will win the battle
focus is key

yall need to define 'freedom'

free from what?

personally i want to be free from the whole capitalist currency system
trading goods and services in a way both parties feel is fair
money is made up nonsense, its just a middle man which is entirely controlled by people who arent 'US' and by us i mean 'the people' and by that i mean common man

 

[ophiuchus]

get some land for cheap and grow your own food. thats what im going to do. requires an entire lifestyle shift, but i am looking forward to it.

 

[Schwanke668]

sun tzu said if you can make your enemy fight on multiple fronts then you will win the battle
focus is key

yall need to define 'freedom'

free from what?

personally i want to be free from the whole capitalist currency system
trading goods and services in a way both parties feel is fair
money is made up nonsense, its just a middle man which is entirely controlled by people who arent 'US' and by us i mean 'the people' and by that i mean common man

Sounds great but thats going to cut you off from a predominant part of society. Some can probably handle that and more power to them but it also means giving up things like the internet which most people take for granted so much that they forget that the existence of 'The Man' is what makes the internet function. (Well that and porn but I digress. )

 

[Crimzen]

as great as the internet is
if we lived more simply there would be no need for it

and why cant the net be free?


aahhh...
i have a dream...

if only the world was able to be perfect

 

[Schwanke668]

as great as the internet is
if we lived more simply there would be no need for it

and why cant the net be free?


aahhh...
i have a dream...

if only the world was able to be perfect

No need for it maybe but I like it.

And as for not being free. Technology costs money. Cant exactly fabricate fiber optics out of the back of a van in the middle of the woods lol. Oh wait. Cant have a van cuz it costs money to do the parts/refine the gas/etc.

People just dont realize what you REALLY have to give up to live away from 'The Man'. The Man is a part of life and a perminent one and you pretty much have to have a private reserve or a cult to get away from it.

 

[Crimzen]

things existed before money

you can have all of this without money
it costs money....not if there isnt such thing as money
there are other methods of trade dude

"the man" can suck my dick
you've been brainwashed if you think its inescapable

 

[GregAndrsn]

Shwanke has a point.

If there was nothing to be gained in capitalistic society, nobody would be in it. It is not a dictatorship, and you are free to leave at anytime. Steal a bike (hah) and make your way to a border.

You aren't going to have internet, nice hot showers, cell phones, movies, or a nice cool breeze when you want it (in the most extreme situation) but you'll be away from THE MAN...

Of course most people settle somewhere in between... A small village, a small town with an abundance of foreign culture; where Nature is The Man, or atleast has a bigger say than in your AC condominium on broadway.

 

[Crimzen]

thats nonsense
'the man' is everywhere except maybe a tiny village in some third world country

If there was nothing to be gained in capitalistic society, nobody would be in it

thats bullshit
theres nothing to gain from being christian yet look how many people are part of that
theres nothing to gain from being an emo and slitting ur wrists yet look how many do that

every country uses money, no matter how third world it is
theres this thing called the global economy, keyword being global

and it aint so easy to just 'head on over to the border'
for example i live in australia, there is no border
and even if there was, if i wanted to keep any kind of life other than that of a pauper i'd have to bring money with me wouldnt i?
either way thats the control of 'the man'
its not much of a choice, either live like a bum or live within OUR system
thats how 'the man' controls
you guys are surprisingly shallow for people who claim to be psychonauts

now im not saying that im suffering so bad that i feel an undying urge to break free from "the man" i doubt many people do
but thats just it, its a somewhat subtle control yet incredibly powerful as its far reaching and all encompassing


"Don't fret precious I'm here, step away from the window
Go back to sleep
Lay your head down child
I won't let the boogeyman come
Counting bodies like sheep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Pay no mind to the rabble
Pay no mind to the rabble
Head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Pay no mind what other voices say
They don't care about you, like I do, like I do
Safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils,
See, they don't give a fuck about you, like I do. "

 

[GregAndrsn]

lol at tool lyrics...

Well, if you feel that way, its fine by me. But I don't. There is consequences of both systems, you live under the man, you have some freedoms taken away, but you get a whole bunch of stuff that is easily accesible, that on your own or in a small village are not very easy to obtain. If it wasn't for capitalism (the LARGE IDEOLOGY OF), we wouldn't be talking to each other on the internet, I wouldn't be drinking some yerba mate in my house, and I wouldn't have this nice of a shelter.

However, if I lived without the man, I could take psilocybin all day, do my daily work high as a kite, swim as much as I wanted to, climb trees for food, etc... however, in the back of my mind survival would always be a heavy weight. I could certainly not live in my climate without a large infrastructure and be vegetarian - the winter there is no plants. I would have to resort to killing, which I guess wouldn't be hard now that I think about it, killing for survival is a bit different from eating a processed cow that was raised alongside 1000 others.

Basically what I'm saying is, don't complain about the entire ideology, when you are depending on that ideology.

Like allusion said in another post, I plan to leave once I'm "done" here, and live in some proper woods, away from people. There are plenty of places and a few months worth of hard work will get you the ticket - if you need money to survive once you get there, you're doing it wrong. And living like a hobo is exactly what living without 'the' man is like... you don't depend on anyone but yourself...... if you're getting at utopian communities - look them up. They exist, there are about 3 or 4 large anarchistic communities out there, I'm sure they'll let you in if you're smart enough...... just do the research.

If you're put off by the word anarchist, then you have alot to learn about it!

 

[Crimzen]

whats lol about a perfect circle lyrics?

so you think that the only reason we have the internet or nice houses is because of money?
really?
not human ingenuity or anything like that?

nothing runs on money (in the literal sense)
payment of workers can be done in many ways other than cash
things only cost money because of the current system
imagine you didnt work for money but for the good of your community/society and by continuing to work as you do now it would uphold all the services and products that you need (internet electricity water etc.)
the only problem is greed but with capitalism greed is a virtue, you are rewarded for being a pig and hoarding resources

 

[Schwanke668]

thats bullshit
theres nothing to gain from being christian yet look how many people are part of that

Actually *THATS* bullshit. You just invalidated the rest of your post by making a gross generalization sweeping statement about other people's personal choices thereby proving your ignorance of the conversation.