Brugmansia
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What's according YOU the reason why some regular trippers seem to be done with entheogens after a few years?
Abandoning tripping
- Auteur de la discussion Brugmansia
- Date de début
There may be several reasons.
First of all, the environment may become less favorable. For example one may start out as a young student surrounded by fellow psychonauts, doing some kind of entheogen on a weekly or monthly basis. Under such circumstances it's easy to obtain the chemicals, borrow relevant books, have companions to journey with, and talk with them about the experiences afterwards. Generally young people have plenty of free time. Sure they have to study a lot, and probably have a part-time job, but they can organize their time in such a way that they can regularly schedule free weekends.
At a certain point his or her friends will move away from the scene, to settle down with their girlfriend somewhere, or to go travel etc. Now the person described above is on his own. Depending on his intellectual grasp of the subject (rather than merely having enjoyed his past recreational use), he may either become interested in other things (sports, travel, etc.) or continue his search on his own.
Let's assume he continues the use of entheogens on his own. If he is patient enough to wait for a suitable partner with a similar deep commitment to the psychedelic or entheogenic experience, he will likely continue to use entheogens, but with less frequency depending on the phases of his relationship. He and she will want to have entheogenic experiences, but they'll have more difficulty scheduling them, because of their fulltime jobs and/or children.
If he wasn't patient enough, he settled for a girlfriend not very much interested in psychedelics, and will be either directly or indirectly discouraged from spending much time studying and ingesting them. And he may go along with that. They may both end up spending weekends visiting their parents, playing tennis, going to the theater and attending New Age workshops. Nothing wrong with these things though, this is life. We should all enjoy it the way we want to.
So these are just examples of the environment putting pressure on individuals to live a more 'normal' life. Sometimes these pressures are only temporary, for example the years that the children are very young (Alex and Allyson Grey abstained from all drugs for the first few years of Zena's life).
Now, taking a look from the inside of the individual, this is of course where all choices are made. I already mentioned "if he's not patient enough..." Such impatience would be the result of not having fully satisfactory experiences with psychedelics. And the reasons for that could be manifold.
There must be a general interest in transcendence and truth for entheogen use to continue throughout life. The frequence isn't that important, one cannot say every human being needs a monthly breakthrough experience. Sometimes one might be distracted for months or years on end, and be engaged in studying other very interesting and useful information and practicing new skills.
It's a bit unfortunate that many teachers of information and skills have little understanding of serious use of psychedelics and entheogens, and thus tend to discourage one to further use them. This may become another factor that makes one decide to abstain from psychedelics henceforth.
Just as important as continuing to have experiences, is becoming more serious and educated in the approach. The better the approach, the more benefit one derives from these mind-altering substances, and thus be encouraged to continue using them throughout life, and try to 'create' the external world in such a way that this freedom is not lost.
First of all, the environment may become less favorable. For example one may start out as a young student surrounded by fellow psychonauts, doing some kind of entheogen on a weekly or monthly basis. Under such circumstances it's easy to obtain the chemicals, borrow relevant books, have companions to journey with, and talk with them about the experiences afterwards. Generally young people have plenty of free time. Sure they have to study a lot, and probably have a part-time job, but they can organize their time in such a way that they can regularly schedule free weekends.
At a certain point his or her friends will move away from the scene, to settle down with their girlfriend somewhere, or to go travel etc. Now the person described above is on his own. Depending on his intellectual grasp of the subject (rather than merely having enjoyed his past recreational use), he may either become interested in other things (sports, travel, etc.) or continue his search on his own.
Let's assume he continues the use of entheogens on his own. If he is patient enough to wait for a suitable partner with a similar deep commitment to the psychedelic or entheogenic experience, he will likely continue to use entheogens, but with less frequency depending on the phases of his relationship. He and she will want to have entheogenic experiences, but they'll have more difficulty scheduling them, because of their fulltime jobs and/or children.
If he wasn't patient enough, he settled for a girlfriend not very much interested in psychedelics, and will be either directly or indirectly discouraged from spending much time studying and ingesting them. And he may go along with that. They may both end up spending weekends visiting their parents, playing tennis, going to the theater and attending New Age workshops. Nothing wrong with these things though, this is life. We should all enjoy it the way we want to.
So these are just examples of the environment putting pressure on individuals to live a more 'normal' life. Sometimes these pressures are only temporary, for example the years that the children are very young (Alex and Allyson Grey abstained from all drugs for the first few years of Zena's life).
Now, taking a look from the inside of the individual, this is of course where all choices are made. I already mentioned "if he's not patient enough..." Such impatience would be the result of not having fully satisfactory experiences with psychedelics. And the reasons for that could be manifold.
There must be a general interest in transcendence and truth for entheogen use to continue throughout life. The frequence isn't that important, one cannot say every human being needs a monthly breakthrough experience. Sometimes one might be distracted for months or years on end, and be engaged in studying other very interesting and useful information and practicing new skills.
It's a bit unfortunate that many teachers of information and skills have little understanding of serious use of psychedelics and entheogens, and thus tend to discourage one to further use them. This may become another factor that makes one decide to abstain from psychedelics henceforth.
Just as important as continuing to have experiences, is becoming more serious and educated in the approach. The better the approach, the more benefit one derives from these mind-altering substances, and thus be encouraged to continue using them throughout life, and try to 'create' the external world in such a way that this freedom is not lost.
I think or hope that since the rise of internet, environment becomes less and less important.. there are people finding connection with eachother there, are able to acces unlimited information and more will feel supported to go on...
i guess that some trippers, talking about regular tripping for years, will tend to think they have fully integrated the experience and it give no insights or fun anymore..
i guess that some trippers, talking about regular tripping for years, will tend to think they have fully integrated the experience and it give no insights or fun anymore..
Brugmansia a dit:
What is the English word for 'vrijblijvend' (altavista says it's without engagement).
I guess at some point trips are not 'vrijblijvend' anymore, you cannot keep running from yourself or revelations. Seeing what needs to change in oneself on entheogens is easy, performing the actual change thereafter, is not always so.
If you get certain big revelations about who you are you always have the choice to act on those or not. You can either ignore the revelation and let time wash the lucidity of it away or, you can actually be brave and live what you learned.
I guess you can only be an outsider, or observer or passenger on these things for so long and if you choose keep ignoring the things you learn about yourself, at some point you just can't use these entheogens anymore because what you'll see just hurts too much.
That's assuming there's a limit on what can be learned using entheogens.
Not so...
I find it common, people lose thier source when they are younger and into psychedelics and then go a few years without them. Enfluenced by other drugs and people or situations in life as you get older, they feel that a psychedelic would blow thier mind completely. They often talk of the good old days but when offerd in the present they often respond like, Fuck that...:lol:
I guess it depends from person to person.
Personally, the thing that can stop me the most from using entheogens is fear.
After a bad trip in a really high dose, I don't think it's uncommon to say "never again".
Or just, maybe, someone can get tired of searching, and searching, and exploring.
Personally, the thing that can stop me the most from using entheogens is fear.
After a bad trip in a really high dose, I don't think it's uncommon to say "never again".
Or just, maybe, someone can get tired of searching, and searching, and exploring.
all of the above are good reasons. abuse/overuse, i think is a huge part of it. also the stigma that psychedelic use is somehow "wrong" runs deep in society, and sooner or later it most likely WILL come up in your trips, whether you consciously deal with it or not.
People use psychedelics for very different reasons, leading me to believe that a major factor is also your purpose and intent. That will determine how you approach the experience and hence what and how much you get out of it..
There's a lot of ways to use psychedelics, eg: IME long term users who are artists will approach psychedelia differently than someone going for ego death. They will be seeking out synesthesia, analyzing their creative processes and their senses, using psychedelics to give them a different perspective on their work. Both approaches are valid (and much more long term than recreational use i think) but different in terms of dose, where your focus is directed, what you will think about the next day...
People use psychedelics for very different reasons, leading me to believe that a major factor is also your purpose and intent. That will determine how you approach the experience and hence what and how much you get out of it..
There's a lot of ways to use psychedelics, eg: IME long term users who are artists will approach psychedelia differently than someone going for ego death. They will be seeking out synesthesia, analyzing their creative processes and their senses, using psychedelics to give them a different perspective on their work. Both approaches are valid (and much more long term than recreational use i think) but different in terms of dose, where your focus is directed, what you will think about the next day...
IJesusChrist
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I like how you guys are trying to figure out why me, and a few others have stopped.
I'll explain my reasons as best I can:
1. I learned something my very first trip that wasn't fair at the time. I didn't ask for that, and I thought psychadelics were something completely different, it scared me, almost to death.
2. This caused me to look for a a better answer - I knew other people had good trips so I wanted to keep going, I wanted to become "enlightened" as some people may call it, but after a few more trips - I realized I am not that person.
3. I think to enjoy the experiences and knowledge you cannot have depression - which I most surely have (had) which is definitely no fun - or ... I think you must in some way have a spiritual belief. I have never had this, or atleast since I became aware more of logic and understanding.
4. I don't have anymore questions deep enough that could have answers I want.
5. I will say this, and I do not mean offense: But I really, really have not found anyone that is on level with my thinking, besides possibly 1 person I know, and he will not take psychadelics as of right now, I cannot blame him, because he too deals with depression.
6. I find that myy own neurology is more intresting (sorry I can no longer read what I'm writing) my screen is messed up. Than that of foreign chemicals as of yet - I have not vowed of chemicals completely - but as for the moderately distant future, I have.
7. I am an atheist. Deep thought generally brings me to the final answer of nothing, instead of what some find: ""Love" or some bullshit like that.
8. Most people I find that enjoy them, seem like kiddies in a sandbox, trying to think of themselves smart, because they have found the "cool" toys, that not everyone else has.
Sorry this was a horrible analogy, but really. I find little intelligence in the realm of psychadelics, mostly just a bucnh of crackpots that see something tripping, and ask nothing more. Kind of like blind faith, and hope, that what they are seeing is not a figment of their imagination under the influence of a strong, strong psycho-active.
I'll explain my reasons as best I can:
1. I learned something my very first trip that wasn't fair at the time. I didn't ask for that, and I thought psychadelics were something completely different, it scared me, almost to death.
2. This caused me to look for a a better answer - I knew other people had good trips so I wanted to keep going, I wanted to become "enlightened" as some people may call it, but after a few more trips - I realized I am not that person.
3. I think to enjoy the experiences and knowledge you cannot have depression - which I most surely have (had) which is definitely no fun - or ... I think you must in some way have a spiritual belief. I have never had this, or atleast since I became aware more of logic and understanding.
4. I don't have anymore questions deep enough that could have answers I want.
5. I will say this, and I do not mean offense: But I really, really have not found anyone that is on level with my thinking, besides possibly 1 person I know, and he will not take psychadelics as of right now, I cannot blame him, because he too deals with depression.
6. I find that myy own neurology is more intresting (sorry I can no longer read what I'm writing) my screen is messed up. Than that of foreign chemicals as of yet - I have not vowed of chemicals completely - but as for the moderately distant future, I have.
7. I am an atheist. Deep thought generally brings me to the final answer of nothing, instead of what some find: ""Love" or some bullshit like that.
8. Most people I find that enjoy them, seem like kiddies in a sandbox, trying to think of themselves smart, because they have found the "cool" toys, that not everyone else has.
Sorry this was a horrible analogy, but really. I find little intelligence in the realm of psychadelics, mostly just a bucnh of crackpots that see something tripping, and ask nothing more. Kind of like blind faith, and hope, that what they are seeing is not a figment of their imagination under the influence of a strong, strong psycho-active.
IJesusChrist a dit:
From what you have just said, You have not experienced the true psychedelic experience. You have not learnt because you have not been properly guided and you obviously have no idea how to do this yourself.
By the sounds of things you have had a bad experience and now your fear makes you take this stance of "A Bunch of Crackpots". I find this highly insulting and also very revealing on your behalf.
Like you stated, " I realized I am not that person.". Im glad your adult enough to say such a thing but please be adult enough to repect those that have an understanding of the experience and what it can deliver in the correct circumstances.
The truth is you and a few others have stopped because Stupidity and Under Estimation of certain substances have scared some of you'se half to death! (Also stated by yourself)
The others merely cant get it any more, dont want to run in the circles its now run by(Thugs), have more responsibilitys in life(Family or Work), have got the frame of mind they wish to remain in or have found the inner peace they longed for gaining the new perspective they required to move on with life.
The ones that stick with it are the ones that carry on the good work helping those yet to discover the possibilitys of psychedelics.
I think why one stops tripping after a couple of years, can also be that he/she more or less 'knows the story' that is being told by the drug, and trips simply do not add anything new anymore. I think psychedelics can teach a few important lessons, but after being taught those lessons one can simply think about those important things without using psychedelics, and the experience isn't that special anymore. For example, one can take mushrooms and walk in a forest and see nature around him with new eyes, as if he has never really looked at plants and trees and birds and insects before. But after one or a few of those experiences, that person can walk around in nature and look at it with the same amazement, without using drugs. His sober experience has become richer, so that psychedelics simply have less to add.
After all, psychedelics only really work for you when they really change the way you look at things. And after that change has happened, I would say that the drug has become obsolete. You can still trip and have a good experience, but it isn't important for you anymore. I guess after that point some people will just stop taking drugs, especially when they are so hard to get. Or instead of once every 4 weeks they will trip once every 4 years. That's the good way of abandoning psychedelics. [edit]: okay I see that restin above already formulated half of my post in one sentece perfectly lol
There is ofcourse also another way. It can be that the person does not manage to unite his psychedelic lessons with his every day life. For example he can be strongly dependant on a certain type of social environment that makes it necessary for him to adapt to a materialistic, egoistic, 'responsible' etc. way of living. It will be hard for him to unite his psychedelic 'lessons' and his social environment, so that he chooses for a more adapted life style and abandons psychedelics. He will forget his lessons then (although a spark will always remain, for later perhaps).
After all, psychedelics only really work for you when they really change the way you look at things. And after that change has happened, I would say that the drug has become obsolete. You can still trip and have a good experience, but it isn't important for you anymore. I guess after that point some people will just stop taking drugs, especially when they are so hard to get. Or instead of once every 4 weeks they will trip once every 4 years. That's the good way of abandoning psychedelics. [edit]: okay I see that restin above already formulated half of my post in one sentece perfectly lol
There is ofcourse also another way. It can be that the person does not manage to unite his psychedelic lessons with his every day life. For example he can be strongly dependant on a certain type of social environment that makes it necessary for him to adapt to a materialistic, egoistic, 'responsible' etc. way of living. It will be hard for him to unite his psychedelic 'lessons' and his social environment, so that he chooses for a more adapted life style and abandons psychedelics. He will forget his lessons then (although a spark will always remain, for later perhaps).
But it's not just about lessons to be learned, it's also about having that refreshing experience, which is useful to all, not just the inexperienced. In that sense psychedelics never become dull or useless, there's always something to be gained.
Depending on how the psychedelics are used of course.
Depending on how the psychedelics are used of course.
Hope this post doesn't offend you and you can get something out of it..
Depression and psychedelics don't mix. Probably that's why you came away from your trips with a sense of nothingness. It's easy to assume that "nothing" is the answer but I hope you realize that is every bit as emotional a response as finding joy and meaning in life, it is not the only "correct" answer nor is it the only ultimate logical conclusion...
If you are depressed and getting nothing out of psychedelics quitting or a long break is a VERY wise move. If I personally was still feeling like I was when i went through several years of depression, I wouldn't even go near pot with a 10 foot pole, never mind lsd.. (I did smoke pot a few times during that period, a mistake every single time, shudder)
Depression is very much like a powerful, bad drug... It changes the way you interpret the world, and when it is gone (It DOES go away, btw) it is like a fog has cleared and you can't even understand why you possibly felt that way before.. If you had some sort of ecstatic eureka trip about life, well that would be different, but that is clearly not your relationship with tripping.
Be careful, atheism does not logically lead to just finding "nothing" or some kind of nihilism, that is simply your truth right now, it is just the way you feel about things, and that WILL change with time. I hope I don't sound patronizing.. I'm just speaking from experience. A lot of people go through some sort of dark, depressing nihilistic phase in their lives, myself included. On the other hand if your life is full of love and meaning and goals you will find all of those aspects amplified greatly on a psychedelic trip, you will be using the trip to focus on those aspects of life, constructively.
You don't need drugs to dig deeply. A hundred generations of philosophers have realized that the more questions you ask, the more questions you end up with. No offense--dig deeper. Do it without drugs. If you keep looking you will realize that answers come with time, and they will keep changing with time... and they will be your answers that work for you, not necessarily the only ones..
I personally don't enjoy hanging out with many drug users.. A lot of drug culture is purely recreational and shallow, it irritates me and I avoid it. I'm kind of lucky I stumbled on the right crowd for me a while back. Choose your friends wisely
Aside from that in the end also maybe other people have found their truths that work for them and make them happy..
I agree, there is a lot of psychedelic bullshit out there that I avoid. Like I said though people take psychedelics for different reasons. I've never taken psychedelics looking for deep meaning in things, I read and engage in art for that.. although sometimes I've stumbled onto insights during trips that have stayed with me, usually as a result of having read and engaged in art in the first place. Personally, I take psychedelics actually because it does amplify/project my imagination and creativity and I find that useful, constructive and enjoyable in a lot of different ways.
Anyway I think you made the right choice for you right now in stopping with psychedelics..
Depression and psychedelics don't mix. Probably that's why you came away from your trips with a sense of nothingness. It's easy to assume that "nothing" is the answer but I hope you realize that is every bit as emotional a response as finding joy and meaning in life, it is not the only "correct" answer nor is it the only ultimate logical conclusion...
If you are depressed and getting nothing out of psychedelics quitting or a long break is a VERY wise move. If I personally was still feeling like I was when i went through several years of depression, I wouldn't even go near pot with a 10 foot pole, never mind lsd.. (I did smoke pot a few times during that period, a mistake every single time, shudder)
Depression is very much like a powerful, bad drug... It changes the way you interpret the world, and when it is gone (It DOES go away, btw) it is like a fog has cleared and you can't even understand why you possibly felt that way before.. If you had some sort of ecstatic eureka trip about life, well that would be different, but that is clearly not your relationship with tripping.
Be careful, atheism does not logically lead to just finding "nothing" or some kind of nihilism, that is simply your truth right now, it is just the way you feel about things, and that WILL change with time. I hope I don't sound patronizing.. I'm just speaking from experience. A lot of people go through some sort of dark, depressing nihilistic phase in their lives, myself included. On the other hand if your life is full of love and meaning and goals you will find all of those aspects amplified greatly on a psychedelic trip, you will be using the trip to focus on those aspects of life, constructively.
You don't need drugs to dig deeply. A hundred generations of philosophers have realized that the more questions you ask, the more questions you end up with. No offense--dig deeper. Do it without drugs. If you keep looking you will realize that answers come with time, and they will keep changing with time... and they will be your answers that work for you, not necessarily the only ones..
I personally don't enjoy hanging out with many drug users.. A lot of drug culture is purely recreational and shallow, it irritates me and I avoid it. I'm kind of lucky I stumbled on the right crowd for me a while back. Choose your friends wisely
Aside from that in the end also maybe other people have found their truths that work for them and make them happy..I agree, there is a lot of psychedelic bullshit out there that I avoid. Like I said though people take psychedelics for different reasons. I've never taken psychedelics looking for deep meaning in things, I read and engage in art for that.. although sometimes I've stumbled onto insights during trips that have stayed with me, usually as a result of having read and engaged in art in the first place. Personally, I take psychedelics actually because it does amplify/project my imagination and creativity and I find that useful, constructive and enjoyable in a lot of different ways.
Anyway I think you made the right choice for you right now in stopping with psychedelics..
magickmumu
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I don’t know.
I have never been there.
For now I see no reason to stop using entheogens.
I am very passionate about entheogens.
I have never been there.
For now I see no reason to stop using entheogens.
I am very passionate about entheogens.
That's great you've never been there, I wouldn't wish it on anyone
I don't know about others who have experienced long term depression.. but when I was depressed (btw I grew up in an isolated part of the world where everyone and their dog was on paxil, prozac, you know)... it wasn't just feeling down. It really was like being on some heavy nasty drug.. It was a genuine pervasive feeling that life was completely meaningless, devoid of joy, 24/7.. I used to fantasize my own death all the time.. during the worst parts of it every day felt like an eternity, fingernails scratching some chalkboard without end... I remember smoking pot and feeling that the world was twisted and dying and everywhere I'd interpret the world as the absolute embodiment of misery... So yeah i don't know about others, but IMO depressed people should avoid drugs like the plague.. except unless you have one hell of a knowledgeable therapist or something
but that's so long ago now and so far away, and I know myself so much better now.. I can't imagine ever feeling that way again..
I don't know about others who have experienced long term depression.. but when I was depressed (btw I grew up in an isolated part of the world where everyone and their dog was on paxil, prozac, you know)... it wasn't just feeling down. It really was like being on some heavy nasty drug.. It was a genuine pervasive feeling that life was completely meaningless, devoid of joy, 24/7.. I used to fantasize my own death all the time.. during the worst parts of it every day felt like an eternity, fingernails scratching some chalkboard without end... I remember smoking pot and feeling that the world was twisted and dying and everywhere I'd interpret the world as the absolute embodiment of misery... So yeah i don't know about others, but IMO depressed people should avoid drugs like the plague.. except unless you have one hell of a knowledgeable therapist or something
but that's so long ago now and so far away, and I know myself so much better now.. I can't imagine ever feeling that way again..
IJesusChrist
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st.bot.32 a dit:That's great you've never been there, I wouldn't wish it on anyone
I don't know about others who have experienced long term depression.. but when I was depressed (btw I grew up in an isolated part of the world where everyone and their dog was on paxil, prosac, you know)... it wasn't just feeling down. It really was like being on some heavy nasty drug.. It was a genuine pervasive feeling that life was completely meaningless, devoid of joy, 24/7.. I used to fantasize my own death all the time.. during the worst parts of it every day felt like an eternity, fingernails scratching some chalkboard without end... I remember smoking pot and feeling that the world was twisted and dying and everywhere I'd interpret the world as the absolute embodiment of misery... So yeah i don't know about others, but IMO depressed people should avoid drugs like the plague.. except unless you have one hell of a knowledgeable therapist or something
but that's so long ago now and so far away, and I know myself so much better now.. I can't imagine ever feeling that way again..
Yeah, I'm recovering from this... Bout 2 years ago was the peak. It IS a drug, depression is like, having a small amount of a drug you just want to end, every day, over and over. You want to be sober again. The worst part is when you believe you'll never get out. That's when suicide sets in.
Anyways: to the people calling me stupid, or whatever, please explain to me: What have you figured out that is so great that you need to keep taking a drug? What is in that drug that you cannot comprehend sober? What is so special about that chemical that y ou cannot possibly make the connections yourself, with your own insight?
... Don't insult my intelligence. I've seeninside the box, I've seen outside the box.
Jamapricotica
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This post has been edited by me, Jamapricotica, for the simple reason that I am attempting to cleanup and/or improve my presence on this forum.
Sorry for any inconveniences this may cause.
Sorry for any inconveniences this may cause.
i was depressed for many years. there was a 2 year stretch where i wanted nothing but to die, every single day. i never tried to act upon it due to my extreme apathy at the time, but im glad i never did. psychedelics (not until a "high enough" dose) showed me my purpose in life, and how one could easily spend all of time searching but never find it, because it cannot be explained, nor written in efficacy, mostly due to the nature of language. but it told me no matter the case, to keep looking, and i remember specifically that that was the most important part, to keep looking with vigor and intensity, 100%.[/b]
Yes, this is why in my opinion depression is not a contra-indication for using psychedelics. But depressed persons definitely need to be in good hands during and after the trip. And as once again confirmed by Adrian here, the dose must be sufficiently high.adrianhaffner a dit:
