Shamanistic Input Requested

[Mr_Spider]

Greetings fellow psychonauts,

My partner (Mz Fly) and I have been using cubensis over the past several months (4 trips to date) to try to better understand a "Force" or "Energy" or "Connection" or, as we call it..."Web" of what can best be described as energy that we experience with one another...almost electrical energy but not quite...warmer...An important point in there is that we sensed this energy before we used the shrooms...The shrooms have entered the picture for us as a possible way to explore it further...to understand it more fully...

Neither of us have before about 6 months ago ever had an experience in this earthly skin that is even remotely similar. We're well into our 40's and it's been a good 20 years or more since either of us dabbled with psychadelics...longer I imagine than some of you young psychonauts out there have even been around.

We crossed paths in March of this year and quickly decided that we were somehow tapping into something amazing, unique, special...that perhaps we were kindred spirits...true soul mates...something ... that we haven't quite grasped...as the physical and sensual and truly spiritual moments we experienced together were seemingly created out of thin air. I've read a considerable amount about things that speak of this "energy" or what many would call "Soul" within us but until only recently could never really grasp any of it as truth...suddenly I see ...suddenly I feel it

I tend to get wordy...sorry...hang in there..point is, months ago, we smoked a bit of weed, drank a few beers, got a nice little buzz on and suddenly over a period of weeks, doors began to open on something first influenced primarily by Libido but quickly developing into an all encompassing and really incredibly warm energy that seemed to radiate through us individually and pass back and forth between us...strange...right...I know....it sounds really strange...unbelievable...

But...we feel it...it isn't some kind of Puppy Love feeling if that's where you're heading...we're not youngin's...we've been there and back as far as relationships and marriage and the like....There is a strong physical attraction but it's way way way more than that...perhaps someone knows what the hell I'm trying to get at...

So we find ourselves guided towards entheogenic research...feeling perhaps that some of what we are sensing would become clearer with the influence of psilocybin. The problem (or maybe challenge would be a better word) we're having at the moment is it's just so much fucking fun taking the mushrooms and experiencing the visuals and considering each and every stimuli that bombards your receptors that we're finding it quite challenging to focus clearly enough on trying to use those altered perceptions in a focused and purposeful way...to investigate..to try to "connect" up to that energy we feel with each other. Our intent going in is..."yes..let's try and do some kind of Vulcan mind meld thingy..." ...you get the idea probably best with that analogy than my talk of our web of energy...we haven't been able to really do this as seriously as we'd like because ..well..because we're not really sure how to try and focus in on a specific concentrated point on the mushrooms...the mushrooms tend to broaden the focus rather than narrow it...

Point of all this rambling is to ask those of you that have had experience using the mushrooms for more than just a wild ride for some suggestions...input...ideas...do's and don'ts, whatever that you have found has helped you to approach your use of mushrooms in a more Shamanistic manner....more as a way of exploring altered states of consciousness and awareness I guess.

We're not in any hurry to turn these trips into science experiments...too much damned fun to be had just letting it happen...but we could use some ideas from the experienced Psychonauts out there...

I'm sure there's a good poll to be made in all my thinking about this but my brain's just not coming up with it at the moment...

Thanks, sorry for all the yammering and we're glad that this community exists as a place where this can be posted without seeming too incredibly weird

 

[Guest]

Why be sorry? I think it's great story

perhaps someone knows what the hell I'm trying to get at...

That would be a very deep spiritual connection
lucky people

Ofcourse trips are really fun and I imagine that pulls away all focus. But to concentrate this you may have to start with lower dosages.
I did some experimenting with sub-hallucinogenic dosages of psylocibin and found that I saw much more details and could grasp so much more of what really was going on, also energywise.
Ofcourse the mushroom not always reveals what you want to see, this can suddenly happend in any trip, with any dose.


A more meditation like setting would improve the energy flow or maybe you could do some tantric exercises, those really link up the energy levels.

For example sitting towards each other on the bed in the lotus position (legs over eachother not necisary), laying your right hand on eachothers chest near the heart and do breathing exercises to get the same breath frequency, move to the other while exhaling and while the other is inhaling.
So if you inhale move back, of you exhale move forward (just with your torso).
And your partner has to do the same thing, in sync, but ofcourse out of phase with you in a way that you move with it and not against it, but this is ofcourse pure logic.


If you both want to take it a bit higher and like sex, I think you should consider learning tantra. This ofcourse goes far beyond "intercourse" and is based on energy levels and exchanging energy, letting it flow into eachother, even through the eyes.
So this can also be a very good way to explore this.
Ofcourse you might think: "Hey, that really isn't my thing."
That's you're every right and I'm just 22 so what do I know right?
But you've also grasped the possibility of mushrooms, so I don't think tantra is really that farfetched, especially with the deep energetic and spiritual connection.
Ofcourse this is just something that I think can help you with the thing you seek and is another interesting format besides mushrooms.


Anyway, Shrooms are too much fun to not use, so don't give up on them
But keep the tantra thing in mind.

 

[Guest]

Back to the shroomstory:

Another thing you should try is trip with no lights on.
This way you can explore your other senses more.
They will go bezerk (in a good way)

Ofcourse you would still see visuals, but try a few things like lying down together, hand in hand, or on your side faced towards eachother (or both)
Be together and feel.
Also hugging would be quite intense (but that you've probably figured out allready ).

I feel envy while reading your story and typing this


I don't have any don'ts, especially because you are well into your 40's and me being 22 so I don't have to tell you anything about being responsible

Maybe except the one: "Don't push things, have fun!
But the story tells me that that is exactly what is going on, so that's great :thumbsup:


Sorry that I went a little bit further then just the sjamanistic view and the mushroom/tripping part, but I do think exploring your energy bond can be done with more then just shrooms.

 

[Mr_Spider]

Sorry that I went a little bit further then just the shamanistic view and the mushroom/tripping part, but I do think exploring your energy bond can be done with more then just shrooms.

Space...I don't think you did go further...your input is very much appreciated...and we totally agree with you...the shrooms are only one avenue...but a very interesting one and one we will continue to explore...

You mention ideas around tantra and all that this implies...it is a part of this no doubt..perhaps one view of what we're experiencing..but a lot of the tantric stuff seems to focus on technique...some kind of sexual secret that you too can learn for the low low price of 99.99...

This energy we experience is what I think people strive to reach with all the exercise...patience...techniques of commercial Tantric ideas...I think we are experiencing what is true at core of that school of thought...

I did some experimenting with sub-hallucinogenic dosages of psylocibin and found that I saw much more details and could grasp so much more of what really was going on, also energywise..

This strikes me as an excellent idea, thank you....Certainly worthy of further study ...as we are now the proud parents of our first flush of B+ cubensis (which by the way is just coming along smashingly!)...we will be free to do as we please with dosage considerations for many a moon to come...and this idea seems very intriguing as a way to maybe tap into some of that awareness without becoming overwhelmed with the psychadelic aspects of the experience.

We appreciate you taking the time to describe the possible tantra like exercises that would help us to achieve a sense of that energy...The funny thing is...it's already there and we really don't need the tantric exercises to tap into it...An understanding of the philosophy underlying Tantra appeals to me a lot however as I think it really will speak to our experience.

Anyway, Shrooms are too much fun to not use, so don't give up on them

No worries there!...way too much fun being had for that!

 

[Forkbender]

Hey Mr_Spider!

Glad you are having such a wonderful deep spiritual experience with another person. My suggestion to you is to either lower the dose or double it. With lower dosages you get higher perception without giggling, like space said, with higher dosages you can't escape yourself and are confronted with what you are. Anyway, I think that you need to learn how to focus your trips, because it is hard mental work. In the beginning it is very hard and the world is very distracting, but after a while (some people 10, some people 100 trips) you get the grasp of it. I think this has to do with the psychological structure of the individual in question. If this person is really open to his or her own problems, than the shrooms will show a way out. If the person is really closed, than the shrooms will try and open him up. It is a process to enlightenment and the first steps are always rocky.

Another option I could suggest is making some chocolate-hasheesh. Just melt both in a pan (don't burn) and mix well. In the right doserange you can get very perceptive of energyfields (at least I do). Meditating together then makes you experience the energyfields about 10 times stronger than usual and will make you able to explore them.

About the energyfields: I don't think you should want to understand them in any rational way. I don't know if you are trying, because language can sometimes get in the way of truly expressing your views, but reason is not your ally in this race. You cannot grasp it, you can only experience it. Don't try to hold it, let it flow.

...And good luck to you two!

 

[HeartCore]

Point of all this rambling is to ask those of you that have had experience using the mushrooms for more than just a wild ride for some suggestions...input...ideas...do's and don'ts, whatever that you have found has helped you to approach your use of mushrooms in a more Shamanistic manner....more as a way of exploring altered states of consciousness and awareness I guess.

Dosage

 

[MzFly]

Hi Heartcore

Your reply pretty much sums up what I believe to be one half of this equation - dosage.

Can you give any indication of what kind of dosage you think would enable the type of experience we seek? We're using P. cubensis.

SpiderFly

 

[HeartCore]

Hi Hearcore

Your reply pretty much sums up what I believe to be one half of this equation - dosage.

Can you give any indication of what kind of dosage you think would enable the type of experience we seek? We're using P. cubensis.

SpiderFly

I'm growing cubensis myself and whenever I'm ready for a big night, I make a tea out of 80-120 grams fresh. My body weight is 90 kilo's. This is the dose that guarantees the effects I want to achieve. Keep in mind that I'm overdosing so I dont miss the spot. I would probably get away with 70 grams but I just hate to end up in between

Besides that, I make sure I am alone in silent darkness with phones switched off. I find it impossible to get at 'that place', when someone else is around, even if its my girlfriend.

The other half of the equation I guess is personal history, prereference etc..

 

[tryptonaut]

I'll follow the advice to take a higher dosage. The first time I felt an almost visible field of energy floating from me (between my hands and my forehead) was when I did about 10g dried cubensis. I have to warn you it wasn't much fun until I reached the kind of zen-point where I felt the energy.

What might also work well is to add some Peganum Harmala. I've only done it once, 5g p.h. with 6g dried cubensis which was way too much, don't repeat my mistake please. However I could see green waves of energy around me, I could actually "feel" the people in the apartment next to mine through the walls and I felt the presence of some other beings (which was one of the more frightening parts to be honest).

btw. I always eyeball my shrooms as I don't have a scale, so 1g more or less I really can't tell. If you're in the "enough" range (above 6g I'd say), 1g more or less really doesn't matter that much. As long as there is so much shroom material in my tea that I can hardly get it all down, I know the trip won't be too weak


I'm really glad for you two - there's nothing better I guess than to find a real spiritual partner. Together you can grow stronger than anyone could alone.

 

[Guest]

Pegamum Harmala is more suitable for trying when you're a bit more experienced.
I mean I did round about 60 mushroom trips, but never tried it before (maybe for the better )

Will deffinately try it sometime, but first explore the shroom itself... It has a lot to tell and to offer


And ofcourse high dosages show you so much, but since MrSpider and MsFly are (I thought) a bit more inexperienced
and lowering the dosage gives them the oportunity to maybe control the state a bit more...

Ofcourse great things happen when you lose control, but that's something for later on...

 

[Brewmaster]

Aint love grand. Your story makes me wish I hadn't beat my wife this morning for making me runny eggs.

But seriously, we're 25 and though we've been growing shrooms as a hobby lately, we quit eating them several years ago. It was fun for many years when we toured with Phish and String Cheese and other bands but after having eaten my weight in hallucinogens, they're not that interesting anymore.( I'll probably eat some of mine fairly soon though ).

I know I'm always singing the praises of my prickly cacti friends but I truly believe that mescaline is the best drug for spiritual / shamanic purposes ( DMT isn't really a bonding drug; more of a personal thing I believe). My wife and I have shared some great experiences in the past few years eating our home grown san pedro up in the mountains. It makes you feel such a strong spiritual bond with everything around you; rocks, trees, animals. The life and soul in all things become much more apparent and beautiful. I find that mescaline doesn't give me the constant rush of hundreds of thoughts bombarding me simultaneously. It's much easier to focus and concentrate on trying to feel what one another are feeling. ( vulcan mind meld ). But whatever works for you. I'm infinitely happy for you both and wish you all the joy in the world.
If you want to try some of my homegrown peruvian torch, I've got a couple kilos dried and powdered now. I'll send you a sample in exchange for a place to stay when I come to Switzerland ( or Suisse er whatever ).

I don't really beat my wife.

 

[HeartCore]

Hey Brew,

Do you need a stay in Holland? For free? All in?

I'll even ask my girlfriend to rub your back lol.

Now about those samples

Just kidding ofcourse. I never had mescaline but its somewhere on my list of wanting to tries. As for bonding, have you ever had DMT in the more authentic form ayahuasca? I dont think so because otherwise you wouldnt write off dmt as non bonding. As a matter of fact, when DMT was rediscovered, they gave it a new name: telepatine, which had to be dropped because it was already named DMT (if I am informed correcly ). Its reported many times that groups on ayahuasca share visions. Hows that for bonding/boundary dissolution

.

 

[Brewmaster]

Of course I've tried huasca. Pretty much in every combination you can think of; aya, viridis, cabrerana, mimosa, harmala. Never tried yopo. I've actually got mimosa on the way so I can try YOUR extraction. I've smoked crystaline DMT once but I'd much rather drink the good medecine.

My wife has never gotten up the nerve to try aya ( she hates puking more than anything ) so I can't comment on how the two of us act together on DMT. But anytime I've gotten a full blown DMT trip with visions and loss of ego and reforming into different animals ( maybe 4 times ) I don't feel like bonding. I want to be left alone with my thoughts and a blanket and the stars. I frequently take groups of friends up to my chill spot in the mountains of Virginia; 5 or more people, for my ayahuasca sessions. I don't drink until everyone else is coming down so that I can keep an eye on them.

After I dose, everyone knows to leave me alone. Now, after the comedown I'm the friendliest person in the world and all I want to do is hug and chit-chat like a little girl. The comedown from aya is better than any mdma experience I've ever had. But for me, aya is a personal healing experince that I partake in when I ( for whatever reason ) start feeling down or depressed. Mescaline is definitely a more buddy buddy all day trip.

Heart, thanks for the offer. Unfortunately I wont be over there till this time next year but I'll let you know. As for backrubs, my girl's a massage therapist.

Yeah, I got the hook-up.

 

[Guest]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, how cute!!!

 

[HeartCore]

Brew, as I said, I cannot say anything about mesc since I dont have experience with it. What stopped me was that I never heard really good experiences like I read about shrooms and ayahuasca.

What I think you mean by bonding, is something I like a lot on MDMA with some close friends. On psychedelics however, I dont want to bond, I want to be left alone, as you said, and I'm completely ok with that

What would be a relative easy and sure way to get some mesc? Extracting San Pedro?

 

[Brewmaster]

http://www.clearwhitelight.org/hatter/extract.htm

if you google mescaline extraction you get all kinds of info this was just first on the list. There's no pictures but I'm sure you'd have no problem figuring it out. I'd say that 50 grams dried pedro or torch would yield 1 dose.

What I do instead is just boil fresh cactus all the way down to black tar and scrape the gunk up with a putty knife and roll it into little balls. ( idea courtesy of erowid ). Then you can just swallow the little pellets with water and avoid the horrible taste. It's also easier than getting down 50 grams dried.
But to get the true experience you gotta try eating it at least once.
As for pure mesc., I haven't seen that in a while. There was a flood of microdots around here a couple years ago but nothing but cactus since then.

 

[HeartCore]

http://www.clearwhitelight.org/hatter/extract.htm

if you google mescaline extraction you get all kinds of info this was just first on the list. There's no pictures but I'm sure you'd have no problem figuring it out. I'd say that 50 grams dried pedro or torch would yield 1 dose.

What I do instead is just boil fresh cactus all the way down to black tar and scrape the gunk up with a putty knife and roll it into little balls. ( idea courtesy of erowid ). Then you can just swallow the little pellets with water and avoid the horrible taste. It's also easier than getting down 50 grams dried.
But to get the true experience you gotta try eating it at least once.
As for pure mesc., I haven't seen that in a while. There was a flood of microdots around here a couple years ago but nothing but cactus since then.

Cool

Yes I am away of google, thank you, I asked you because obviously you have a lot of experience and can save me digging through tons of material

When you say true experience, what do you mean by that? If this experience was really much better while eating cactus, you wouldnt advice to extract right?

Anyway, I'm going to order some cactus next month

 

[Brewmaster]

No, it's not really any better. If anything it'll make you queasy. I never have any stomach troubles but some people can. It's just ( in "tea" form ) a very thick disgusting snot-like liquid. The mescaline wont make you sick but the taste and consistency of the liquid might. And every time you burp, you taste it again.

I just say "true experience" because it's the traditional way things are done.
I treat my own cactus with great care and respect so when I harvest some 3 year old cuttings, it kind of breaks my heart a little. So we usually do it in a pseudo-ceremony type setting to show respect for the cactus and the people who have done this before us for hundreds of years. It's always outside at night with no artificial light, only a campfire or candles. We meditate and play music ( drums and guitar ) while we wait for the come up.
Then we usually go for a night hike. We have this spot here in VA called Cold Mountain ( not the book. that was in NC ) which is our favorite place in the world. The top of the mountain is over 4,000 feet ( nothing to you Suisse, I know ) and all clear and grassy on the top with 360 degree views. It's the best place around here to camp for the night and star gaze while tripping balls.
When I do mescaline at night it's like ayahuasca. It totally enhances your night vision, so night hikes are always fun. We do usually put headlamps on our two dogs though. I don't wanna lose them and they love having headlamps.

Anyway, no. Drinking snot tea is no better than pure mesc. It's just easier and I feel it gives me a greater bond with the cacti I've been growing for years. Of course there has been a time or two when I would use the black tar method to dose at a show or when snot tea was not convenient.

 

[Guest]

Man, sounds like a good way to try it the first time, the black tar method.
Only I do understand what your saying about doin' it the traditional way and having lots of respect for the cacti

 

[Brewmaster]

Space: When I was in college, I majored in art ( painting ) but I also minored in the study of world religions. This is when I became interested in shamanism.
I probably sound like a hypocrite alot of times because I don't believe in god but I talk about crazy hippie shit like spirits and teacher plants. The truth is, like most people, I don't really know what I believe but I find the study of beliefs quite interesting.

I did drugs for many years because I was young and wanted to try anything and everything and then try them some more. I got completely burned out on acid and shrooms from over use. I didn't do anything but smoke weed for several years. Nowadays, I'm more interested in how different cultures use various plants and substances as part of their religions and ceremonies. So when I decide to use one of these teacher plants, I kind of make it a big deal.
I set aside a whole weekend to go out to the mountains and an entire day to brew up whatever it is I'm taking; Cactus or ayahuasca. Now, I'm not pretending that I'm some Peruvian Shaman from 250 bc and we must do everything exactly right or the gods will strike us down, I just want to loosely recreate a ceremony in the context of a natural setting that , hopefully will grant me some kind of knowledge or insight. For me, it's alot more fun than just dosing on a Saturday night because there's nothing better to do.

In reference to the San pedro; by the "traditional way" I meant drinking the cactus juice/tea or eating raw as opposed to extracting the mescaline. I don't think they had chloroform and benzene handy back in the day. As I've said, I am hardly a religious person but I feel that all living things should be treated with respect; including plants. I love all my psychoactive plants but I have a real attatchment to my cactus. When I cut off a log from one of them, I say a little prayer in my head and burn sage in the house. And I always save the tip to replant and leave a stump large enough that it can grow a new branch as well. I really believe that mescaline containing cacti are very special and should be held sacred and that they have a legitimate place in the context of religion. I feel the same way about Aya and DMT containing plants. That they're more than just good-time-party-dance drugs and that they can actually help and heal you if you let them.

So there's a long answer for a really short question