lsd and schizophrenia-like psychosis

[wdte]

hello
swim has never tried lsd (only marijuana, barbiturates and amphetamine) and has had schizophrenia-like psychosis (scizophrenia?) for about four months (some kind of borderline state with pseudo-halucinations, endless unstructured thoughts, noise in the ears, depression, dramatic mood swings from euphoria to depression). the psychosis was triggered by a bad trip on amphetamine very close to serious overdose. recently has been assigned with treatment (homeopathy - nervoheel and some injections after 10 days of nervoheel).
swim has always wanted to have an lsd experience, but never had the chance. has a very positive attitude to psychedelics and fine knowledge about them.
the questions are:
the dosage. swim has heard that people with such disorders require higher dosage, but he has always been very sensetive to psychoactive drugs.
the trip. what should be availible to stop the trip? also, would diazepam affect the trip someway, or would it just block the anxiety?
i would be very thankful for the fast response!

 

[Sludge]

I always heard that people diagnotized with psychosis shouln't take any psychedelic or dissociative drugs.

 

[HermesTrismegistus]

This doesn't sound like a good idea at all...

the dosage. swim has heard that people with such disorders require higher dosage, but he has always been very sensetive to psychoactive drugs.
the trip. what should be availible to stop the trip? also, would diazepam affect the trip someway, or would it just block the anxiety?
i would be very thankful for the fast response!

There is nothing to stop the trip, and if Swim is not careful he can bring his next visit for a treatment in a hospital.... And if he has moodswings, who knows what he is going to do when he feels depressed?

I would advice Swim to not use any psychedelics at all. i did knew 3 guys who had schizofrenic and they all have gone mad on acid....

 

[IJesusChrist]

HEllo mate.

You had a traumatic trip on an amphetamine that rounded you up in psychosis land and your planning on taking a psychoactive?

The fact that you cannot control your thoughts (you said it yourself) demands that you do not take LSD or any other psychedelics.

If you were asking for help on how to approach your "bad trip" I would offer more advice, but if you are simply going head long into a psychedelic state while in an unstable state, I highly suggest you take a deep, deep look at yourself, and what the possibilities of that are.

Are you afraid to die?
Do you fear insanity?

If you answered yes to either, you may want to reconsider [ for now ].

Why don't you stick around a bit and talk to some of us some more so you can gain some more insight?

 

[BrainEater]

i would suggest that your friend should not take psychoactives at least not until he feels "a bit more" than relatively stable... it can make it a lot worse if you risk too much... you know?? :wasted: :finger:

what your friend should do is meditation. maybe at first guided or with music, images or even films... you need to find the right (type of) media and/or environment for your friend to relax in order for him to learn how to shut off his thought process and control it step by step. then he needs to let go of all the unnecessary bad shit and figure out how to get back to the last sane state he knew and reverse the psychosis. the most simple way for shutting off the thought process is deep and slow breathing and focussing only on that. then it will get more and more easier to control the mind, instead of it having the control. you can maybe think of some excercises for your friend that will help him then to get a constant steady grip on his mind, instead of it having a constant steady grip on him.

physical excercise can help him not to pay attention (energy) to his rampaging mind also... however the most important aspect is simply breathing, because it is connected to the subconscious (and unconscious) mind and it's running time.
like for example if you hold your breath as long as you can, what happens is that "it" will start to breathe automatically, which you can't resist for obvious reasons. :retard:
the subconscious/unconscious mind then just takes over control....

if you know how to do it or know someone experienced, then hypnosis is a very powerful tool, as well, for reprogramming the mind. or self-hypnosis with the right mantras for your friend... but be very careful.... hypnosis is more powerful than you possibly can imagine. i think starting with meditation and progressive relaxation is the best thing to do, really.
good luck!


peace

 

[IJesusChrist]

i would suggest that your friend should not take psychoactives at least not until he feels "a bit more" than relatively stable... it can make it a lot worse if you risk too much... you know?? :wasted: :finger:

what your friend should do is meditation. maybe at first guided or with music, images or even flims... you need to find the right (type of) media and/or environment for your friend to relax in order for him to learn how to shut off his thought process and control it step by step. then he needs to let go of all the unnecessary bad shit and figure out how to get back to the last sane state he knew and reverse the psychosis. the most simple way for shutting off the thought process is deep and slow breathing and focussing only on that. then it will get more and more easier to control the mind, instead of it having the control. you can maybe think of some excercises for your friend that will help him then to get a constant steady grip on his mind, instead of it having a constant steady grip on him.

physical excercise can help him not to pay attention (energy) to his rampaging mind also... however the most important aspect is simply breathing, because it is connected to the subconscious (and unconscious) mind and it's running time.
like for example if you hold your breath as long as you can, what happens is that "it" will start to breathe automatically, which you can't resist for obvious reasons. :retard:
the subconscious/unconscious mind then just takes over control....

if you know how to do it or know someone experienced, then hypnosis is a very powerful tool, as well, for reprogramming the mind. or self-hypnosis with the right mantras for your friend... but be very careful.... hypnosis is more powerful than you possibly can imagine. i think starting with meditation and progressive relaxation is the best thing to do, really.
good luck!


peace

this is probably worth stating twice.

 

[HermesTrismegistus]

And three times... Well said braineater!

 

[wdte]

thanks a lot for the advice!
however, swim decided to take a rather low dosage of lsd and that helped him so much!
he solved a lot of his internal problems and helped himself to establish a better connection with the outer world. at some stage his experience became moderately unpleasant, but he understands that this could not be avoided if you have inner problems. he believes that another session or two would help him even more and fully make the psychosis vanish.
at some point of downcome, he fully regained his personality. however, afterwards some symptoms came back. now he's in the state of great improvement. what worries him so much, is that the part of the psychosis didn't go away and that it may have become more solid and difficult to overcome as it is now more separated from his freed personality, whereas before, everything inside of him was in the state of psychosis. anyways, he regained much freedom, emotions and the psychosis is now easier to control and seems to have less power now.
at an early point of downcome swim has noticed that his voice didnt dissolve. that made him very anxious. he kept telling himself to stop thinking, but he was still thinking about that.
that the overall process of downcome was rather drastic and sudden and had a common feeling of being unnatural.
maybe a higher dosage could solve these problems?
also, is it better not to sleep at the downcome or is it ok?

 

[KrispedKritter]

Fourth time quote for BrainEater.

And for you, friend, I'd suggest for your friend to stop before he goes "too far". If he's not into meditation or the fact that it would take a while (we all want change Right Now, no?), I'd suggest reading a book of Dr. Stanislav Grof's, and I'd suggest one of his more "general" books only so that your friend can get a damn sense of the grand things he is trying to accomplish in his still manic mindset. "LSD: Doorway to the Numinous: The Groundbreaking Psychedelic Research into Realms of the Human Unconscious", for example.

If you ARE going to go again, which I bet you are (but I advice against), don't up the dose by a lot. As in, don't take any extreme risks. I don't know what mkg you went for now, but don't up it by more than 50-100; past 20 micrograms (which is where LSD starts to hit you), ever little bit makes a big difference, and how just you react to it is too personal to not take into consideration. And yes, I think I've read somewhere (like that book I mentioned...) that the dose "usually" (but not always!) has to be higher for the sweet spot (that is, the spot where you're in a totally manic, full-on hallucinogenic mindset where you re-live all the really f*cking unpleasant traumas of your life with no one to stop you but your therapist), but I think that what your friend would really need is the right "sitter" and environment, again, well described within Grof's research (and Leary, and other LSD-gurus).

Maybe you'd be better with contacting an organisation wherein people Know What They're Doing? try out MAPS (www.maps.org) or maybe a meditation center?

Please, for the sake of your mind, don't go fumbling into darkness, but if you do, remember that Love shines on, and allows you to, too.

 

[wdte]

at some point i've started reading grof's lsd psychotherapy, but haven't finished it, as i've seen no need at that time. i'll tell him to read it.
i'm pretty sure that both me and my friend have the understanding of how grand these things are. don't you think that it's natural at some point to go bad and it's a question of strenght of soul and the attitude you to psychedelics? face your fears and traumas, accept them and live on. what use is it to postpone taking lsd for the better times when the problems need to be solved now? my friend knows about them and how deep they are.
he just needs something to help overcome them, to feel the warmth of the world inside and the warmth of people. what he also needs is to forgive himself and the people, which he can't do by himself. as my friend is a sensetive and itelligent person by nature i don't think that living in the state of affective psychosis, although rather mild, but still very braintwisting and horrible is less traumatic. this has been going on for 4 months, and the trip gave him the feeling of improvement and he finally wants to live again. he feels that he has found the right way for him and he says that he's ready to face whatever difficulties may appear during the trip.
he doesn't like the idea of meditation for some reason. i'd say he's just not into that kind of things. maybe he associates it with some tranquil monks in oblivion who have abbandoned the society. he also doesn't like the eastern stuff like yoga, meditation, buddhism and other things as he doesn't like the idea that people don't have a soul.
i see a lot of sense in your words, guys. but your advice is in some way so general that it loses something in this case.
anyways i'd like to thank you all, it's good to know that there are still people who care :wink:

edit:
the other ways of solving the problems of my friend that were suggested by other people never felt really right for him. finally, he can say that there's something really working for him. he detested the idea of treating that uncontrolled thought flow as being not part of him and the need to cut it off. after taking lsd he realised that it is possible to change it, so it becomes him, but in no way psychotic, coming to terms with whom he is and accepting it.

 

[KrispedKritter]

...and becoming more psychotic/manic

When I was toying around (oh, so young I seemed!) with LSA, I got myself stuck in a twisted psychosis-like state where everything was truly hellish for some three hours (this, after pushing on to strong in my own head whilst discovering the true potential of psychedelics/LSD/LSA, just after I "made the ADHD go away for good" in myself and a friend of mine), this whole ordeal ended with the aforementioned ego-death-revival thing, after which I've had continuous mild hallucinations and psychotic-like state of mind (although tranquil, good hearted, just improved "me") for, what, a year and a half now, I think?

Don't get me wrong though, I've had terrible trains of thought that just couldn't be stopped by anything, mostly because of afghan hashish that was really kicking me in the balls, and I think some Skunk one time, too. At the time, I looked to psychedelics in a sense of "either I push it and straighten things out, or I don't take it at all and let this shit fall to the ground before I go flying again". I stayed soberish for half a year, first couple of months having one toke a week and "love" sessions with myself and Dr. P-Funkenstein, the Bomb, and other good-hearted musical gurus (Syd Barrett was including for a time, too, which turned out to be a pretty foolish choice, but oh well ). After the half year had gone, I started smoking with friends, have had LSD, doses 100-600, taken during certain occasions, some salvia trips, mixed with sober/and-not-so-sober meditation, picking up music as a lifestyle and other artsy-rebellious things that just goes with frustration of being caught where we are.

During all them trips, things could have taken for the worse. It's like that for everybody, I'm pretty sure, one of the things that just make up LSD. With mushrooms, or even the natural strains of LSA, the trip handles you differently. Well, that's just it, I'd say It handles you, while with LSD it's give or take, on or off. Feeling love with LSD can be beautiful, but you usually really need the people to do it, and the setting and some are on mdma and lots of grass and girls and boys and oh dear waren't we just having a wonderful loving time? When I've done it with my friend, same guy as the LSA experience (we still have a very strong ... ehm, sympatethic? telesympathic? bond) and some 650ish micrograms, it was very hard indeed to find the love, even though I do it every day, but he does not. The trip was rather awful, yet aweful. Having discussions with manifestation of the devil in your friend, asking you where the love is, and you not being able to produce it, was ... different.

With shrooms, though, there was always enough of it there, able to sway you down or up or what have you (together with good grass, of course...).

...what I'm trying to get out but thc getting in the way for: have you considered some other psychedelic than LSD? It might not be the one right one for your friend, just because of its nature.

Mind you, I still advise against ANY psychedelic or other drug; let it do itself down a bit before stressing it up again.

 

[KrispedKritter]

Oh, another thing, might be worthwhile considering if you're going to go ahead with the LSD anyway, despite the outcry of this society: do you know anything about the Tibetan Book of the Dead? I'm not saying read the whole thing, but Leary, Ram Dass and some others did this pretty cool manual on the Book, which might actually prove quite useful for your whole ordeal.

http://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Exper ... =8-1-spell

I'm sure you'd be able to find it online if you wanted to, I recommend it! (still more, though, I recommend chillin' and to a degree learn to live with it for a while under Loving observance. Don't fry your nut.)

 

[wdte]

really, i don't know what to think
what he says to me pretty much reminds me the scenario in barbara o'brien - "operators and things".
he's feeling that it's almost solved and there's just a tiny bit to overcome.
it really is goddamn risky, but i believe that when psyschosis starts to feel kinda helpful and "starts saying": "it's almost over, you just need the empathy, to let out all the things heavy on your heart and that's it", you just can't ignore it. all this time i could never tell from his behaviour that he's some way diffirent and no wat to notice that he has a mental disorder. he has shut down his problems inside, which, by the way, were in great degree a result and causes of affective disorder, solved them and share all what he's lived through. the problem is that the part of personality and mind that was working on this stuff and has come over it is now so isolated that he probably can't break it through by himself.

 

[KrispedKritter]

...so, what is he looking for more in LSD, then? It's nothing but himself, baby! Jokes aside, there's some seriousness to it, too. What if he does it, dives in, and takes place in the smaller personality and never lets go, never comes out. Or the other way around, locks it in tight, letting the others take over; Is he a "strong" tripper? I'd find it hard to find my feet to stand clear of disaster during a trip if I the ground was wobbling when sober, myself.

 

[wdte]

you're talking about it as though it's some kind of a dissociative disorder personality. he feels that they're both part of him. but his higher emotions and thoughts are blocked due to fears and denial from people.
yes, he's a strong tripper. he's come through some really hard times spiritually and even after the first trip he said that what he experienced wasn't all that new to him, which means he has feeling and understating of what's happening when you're on an lsd trip. it's not a problem of the strength of his, i suppose. it used to be a problem, but now it has grown into an inability. he needs something to keep him up while overcoming this. it's a deep problem indeed, so it's very difficult to be solved in a normal state.
leaving all that aside, dissociative effect will go for good as it will influence both parts and make them much easier to unite, because there will become less difference between them in that kind of state.

 

[HermesTrismegistus]

I have said it before, i knew 3 people who had schizofrenia. Especially one of those guys did acid regular. I warned him a couple of times, but he never listened to me.

One day i got a call from a friend, he told me that the guy was hospitalized. He has been in a hospital for 1 year! I have visited him multiple times, but often he didn't even recognised me, he was totally stuck in different world and said the weirdest things for almost a year long. It was scary to see, how someone could lose all touch with reality.

But the point is, this guy also thought that psychedelics could heal schizofrenia and other stuff.....

I myself won't debate that psychedelics can have healing effects, because i know they do. But i never heard a story where someone had cured from psychosis by taking just acid.... Especially in the case of psychosis i only heart story's that did make it more worse.....

Goodluck, i think we have warned enough for this dangerous game your friend is playing....

Gr,
Hermes.

 

[wdte]

schizophrenia and schizophrenia-like psychosis are very different, although the symptoms could be the same.
lsd is even used for finding out whether someone has schizophrenia (endogenous psychosis) or schizophrenia-like psychosis (psychogenic psychosis). if the psychosis becomes worse after adminestering lsd, the person shuts himslef even more, then it's schizophrenia. if the problem is psychogenic, then the symptoms of the psychosis become weaker or disappear. surely, as the effect of lsd grows, the person may experience something similar to a psychosis, but to the best of my knowledge that's an expectable effect for anyone.
as you can see, with that kind of difference in the effect, there's no way to treat schizophrenia and schizophrenia-like psychosis as the same things in this aspect.
is that something new to you or you already knew that stuff? i wonder because it makes so much difference.

 

[KrispedKritter]

Again, you should read Grof's research, and I'm sure there's a tonne of other (academically performed) research out there. What other psychoactives is he on, on a regular basis?

 

[5tr4t0]

lsd is even used for finding out whether someone has schizophrenia (endogenous psychosis) or schizophrenia-like psychosis (psychogenic psychosis). if the psychosis becomes worse after adminestering lsd, the person shuts himslef even more, then it's schizophrenia.

Are you sure that LSD is used to know that ? I thought LSD was scheduled in the entire world, so I don't think doctors can administer it to psychotic peoples.

 

[wdte]

none
he used to smoke maryjane, but abandonded it a year ago. he's been doing amphetamine only for 4-5 times in his life. the problem with him is not really the psychosis itself. it's a result of an affective disorder. when he talks to a person that he likes, the pscyhosis either disappears or becomes almost unnoticiable. but usually even 5 seconds of being alone are enough to bring take back the psychotic thinking. he's not mad, really. he can distinguish what has connenction with the reality or what doesn't. he just needs to reastablish the contact with people as the person he is.