Importance of Symbolism

[itsscience]

Hi Psychonauts,

I'm looking to start a discussion on the importance (or lack thereof) of symbolism.

I'm moved to write this after the football club I have followed for 16 years (they've only been around for 16 years) has just changed its symbols and colours with no consultation with its members.

I've found I'm devastated by these changes. I had never really considered the importance of the club's symbols to me but now that they are gone I'm absolutely devastated and will not renew my membership.

How important is symbolism to you? Am I just being a sook about the whole thing?

 

[Gumby]

Not sure what this has to do with psychonautics, but symbols are given power by people.

Honestly if you abandon something after 16 years because of a few shapes and colours, then for lack of better words, you're pretty dumb.

But to each their own, whatever makes you happy.

 

[ophiuchus]

symbolism is extremely relevant and important to everyone, whether they admit it (realize it) or not. i've just finished a begginners class on sacred geometry, and it was very revealing. you have no idea how much ancient symbolism you are surrounded by on an everyday basis. i believe at the present moment that, geometry, especially involving (math with) irrational numbers is going to be a key component in reinventing sustainable technology/energy, and has already aided in discovering a Unified Field Theory of physics.

 

[ophiuchus]

is he "dumb", gumby? you have no idea his motives. im not saying anyones smart or dumb, but i believe that was a "dumb" statement to try to make about somebody you know nothing about...

 

[Vandraren]

iHonestly if you abandon something after 16 years because of a few shapes and colours, then for lack of better words, you're pretty dumb.

As the other guy said, don't be so quick to judge. Anyway:
The only football game I have ever watched in my entire life was Sweden vs. Germany last FIFA, so I may not know much about the sport, but as far as I've seen, sports has alot to do with personal identity. People wear their jerseys and what not, scarfs, etc. to be seen and recognized as a supporter of that particular team. Changing the logo may seem like a small move, but it is potentially equal to changing the flag of a country. There's not that much of a difference between sports and nationalism, from a psychological perspective.
If I remember Man and His Symbols rightly, Jung defines symbols as connections to the unconscious, and this is where their power comes from. Understanding symbols helps us understand the unconscious, and this is one of the more important goals (IMHO) for psychonauts. I won't say anymore because I don't want to bring in the whole sign vs. symbol thing, because its very confusing to me, haha.

. i've just finished a begginners class on sacred geometry, and it was very revealing.

I'm jealous. Sacred Geometry is indescribably awesome.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Hi.

In an abstract sense, symbolism is all we perceive. Our brain interprets endless amounts of matter and info and integrates it into a conceivable idea, entity, or identity.
There is no tree before you understand tree, there is no mountain before you understand mountain. With the risk of sounding cliche, reality "just is", until you introduce symbolism. Symbols introduce a substance, a body, a meaning to an abstract idea. So in the most abstract meaning, you very rarely experience anything but symbolism.

There are moments of pure, unfiltered information that do occur - often on psychodelics. Psychodelics for some people, myself included, allow for brief moments where observing is pure. Its a completely new world, and often alien - when edges are no longer edges but gradients. People are no longer people, but energy. The wind is no longer wind, but a flow.

As for your groups symbolism, I do not see anything wrong with your discomfort with the change in symbolism. To you, that symbol was the club, and indeed, you had strong ties, literal connections with the club and its symbol. When this connection is broken, you are left with an empty symbol, and a naked club - the new symbol will never fully compensate or mimic the old, due to the organic nature of our perceptions and experiences. You have lost something.

I hope this addresses the importance of symbolism, and it's deep ties to psychodelics, atleast from my experiences.

-Troll

 

[itsscience]

I love this site! I'm realatively new to online forums but this is the most erudite and inclusive forum I've found.

The link between psychonautics and symbolism may be tenuous or non existent to some but in my experience with psychedelics there have certainly been certain symbols and geometric patterns that seemed to be repeated in the OEVs and CEVs that I've had.

I'm fighting for the symbols of my club and I was worried that I was a vocal minority and/or fighting in vain but it just seemed important to me, you guys have helped to renew my faith that the fight is actually worth it.

Allusion, a class in sacred geometry would be fantastic, good on you for doing.

IJC, as ever your insight is valuable and valued.

Thanks again psychonauts.

 

[Gumby]

You guys are going far more in depth into symbolism than to OP was.

I did not say symbolism was dumb. I was looking at his example of abandoning something he loved because of color and symbol changes. As far as I could tell from his description, the team is still fundamentally the same.

(..) but i believe that was a "dumb" statement to try to make about somebody you know nothing about...

I know that he abandons things he once loved due to color and shape changes, that's enough for me to feel that he made a dumb decision.

Not sure how you guys can be so anal about something so insignificant. It's colors and shapes, get over it, there are far bigger issues at hand. Sure you took a class on symbolism, and good job, because increased knowledge is valuable. But if you let yourself be changed by simple symbol changes, then you cease to be thinking for yourself.

Any rational person that looks at their favorite sports team (i'll pick hockey team because i'm Canadian) before and after a change to their logo/colors, and decides they no longer want to support a team because the logo is now a red leaf instead of a blue leaf, has some mental issues that I personally cannot understand.

But like all of you seemed to ignore in my first post, "But to each their own, whatever makes you happy."

 

[itsscience]

Chill out Gumby (apt choice of name by the way).

What is dumb is assuming you know all the nuances of a given situation such that you can pronounce judgment so unequivocally.

A big part of the issue is that the club always prided itself on being a people's club and in the past this sort of thing would have been put to the membership first. However, the main thrust of the post was to engender some discussion about symbolism which is something common to the psychedlic experience for many (although obviously not you).

Sometimes when you find a topic that's not to your liking or beyond your capabilities, it's best to just move on.

 

[Gumby]

Chill out Gumby (apt choice of name by the way).

What is dumb is assuming you know all the nuances of a given situation such that you can pronounce judgment so unequivocally.

Fair enough, I just felt as if I was being attacked and I can see how it's possible that you or others may have felt that I was attacking you. This is not the case.

Symbolism does very little for me, and you're right, has very little connection to the psychedelic experiences I've had. It was probably best for me to shut my e-mouth in this situation.

Also, the name comes from what I felt I had turned into during my first experience with salvia and also a nickname from childhood. In some ways I guess the choosing of the name was symbolism at work, and thus you've been proven right.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Symbolism does very little for me, and you're right, has very little connection to the psychedelic experiences I've had.

Wrong. [See post below]

 

[Brugmansia]

 

[itsscience]

No worries Gumby, mistakes are easily made over purely written communication because of the absence of tone and body language.

I think however, that your posts illustrate a good point about the discussion. Symbols seem more important to some than to others. My first inclination was that there is a difference that causes some to place more emphasis on symbols than others. Then as I thought about my own experience I realised that on the conscious plane the symbols didn't seem all that important to me before the changes were made to them. The changes being made caused me to think more about the actual symbols and what they meant to me. It seems to me that symbols are important to all of us subconsciously but we're not aware of them until we decide to examine them closely and their meaning either through choice or force.

Next time I have a psychedlic experience I'm going to try to remember to pay more attention to the symbols I see (particularly those that seem to regularly occur) both during and after the trip.

 

[IJesusChrist]

This was kind of fun actually. <- All symbols.

 

[itsscience]

finger painting for adults?

 

[maxfreakout]

what is the difference between symbols and symbolism?

 

[ophiuchus]

precisely that is like saying: "whats the difference in a swimmer and swimming?" one is the thing itself, the other is the process, the using, the practicing, the conveying with symbols. are you serious?

Then as I thought about my own experience I realised that on the conscious plane the symbols didn't seem all that important to me before the changes were made to them. The changes being made caused me to think more about the actual symbols and what they meant to me. It seems to me that symbols are important to all of us subconsciously but we're not aware of them until we decide to examine them closely and their meaning either through choice or force.

this is the nature of symbols. if one takes the time to analyze them, then one gains control over them (in the sense of how they affect you, or how they can be used to affect others)