Heroic Doses

[Guy]

Hey all. I'm a novice psychonaut, still exploring my own mind. I've been practicing meditation, using drugs, and learning in this inward direction for about a year now.

I am interested in the concept of heroic doses. I imagine most of you are aware of McKenna, but I am not referring to mushrooms specifically, but rather psychadelics in general (one would hope that nobody tries a heroic dose of heroin or crack).

What do you guys consider heroic doses? When I write heroic doses, I mean the term in the sense of much larger-than-average doses with very potent effects. Heroic doses are ingested with the intention of facilitating ego death, out-of-body experiences, deep existential insight, or life-changing realizations. McKenna described 5 grams of psilocybin mushrooms as a heroic dose, but I've read many trip reports where users stretch further. MAOIs can intensify a dose without increasing it, so these inhibitors, along with other synergistic effects of combined substances compound the question. How far can one absolutely maximize the effects of a substance (necessarily including the bad effects), before it becomes dangerous to the mind, body, or soul?

I'd be interested in reading your opinions on different psychoactives and their heroic doses. Scientifically, LD50 for many substances is merely conjecture, and the purging (Ayahuasca, LSA, Cacti, Syrian Rue, etc...) or intoxicating (Salvia, smoked DMT, etc...) natures of many substances prevents overdose. I am instead looking for advice on how far to take substances with minimal risk to my mind, and body, over the long term.

As a related note, I am considering taking a large (50-60+g) dose of ground encapsulated Peruvian Torch cactus, with a MAOI sometime in the next few months. I have toyed with the idea of adding some mimosa hostilis to this adventure in order to "color" the DMT trip. When I told a friend this, he jokingly suggested I add a pot brownie, topped with shrooms, and dipped in LSD. Jokes aside, what would one recommend specifically for me?

Thanks for all the help, although since there is no current topic on heroic doses, I am sure this thread can become a great reference for future psychonauts.

 

[Affirmatory]

On MAOI's. Why bother? Why not just take more of the drug?

My experience lies mainly in lsd, but I've never had any way to know the doses. I don't really use the term 'heroic' dose. Taking larger amounts of drugs doesn't make you a hero.

But yeah, I have done what I consider high doses of lsd, and I can tell you that there is a good chance you may 'damage' your mind. It will probably heal and be stronger for it, but that isn't always the case. I was having 'flashbacks', zoning out, being very emotional, constant closed eye visuals, feeling depersonalized, marijuana's effects were like taking acid... etc. for months after I stopped taking acid weekly.

So.. it's serious shit. If you want to do massive doses be prepared to go to hell and back. It was the best thing that ever happened to me but I can see how it could have easily led to me going properly mad if the conditions weren't right.

Oh, and if I ever do acid again, I'm most definitely upping the dose.

 

[Forkbender]

My own definition of a heroic dose would be: If you think "Oh my God am I really taking this? What is going to happen?!?" it is heroic.

 

[Jeniger]

There is a combination of more factors,

U can take a "heroic dose" but the amount u have to take to achieve that also depends for a big case on how long u have been fasting and how much tolerance u still have from previous experiencies. Also there are people that are more sensative for everything in life like foods, sounds, stress and also psychedelics

So for everyone it will be different, best to just find out yourself..

Why boter to take maoi? Not everyone has a big stash wich they can take unlimited. Its a opinion u hear a lot in the scientific field. But why not? Tradtional use also includes mixtures of more plants..

Forkbender says it right, when u have the idea its too much, it will probably work out that way resulting in a heroic dose..

Then i think also the more psychedelic experiences u have, the less strong this heroic experience becomes

 

[sunshroom]

Hmm.. Definition of heroic dose should be dose you need to take to have heroic experience. And heroic experience is different for everyone, to whom it is asking from "elves" why are we/they here, to whom letting his/her ego die and be on with the universe etc, etc.

 

[Meduzz]

My own definition of a heroic dose would be: If you think "Oh my God am I really taking this? What is going to happen?!?" it is heroic.

+1
The "heroic" property should manifests in the mindset rather than the dose per se. Otherwise it's just a big dose.

 

[HeartCore]

My own definition of a heroic dose would be: If you think "Oh my God am I really taking this? What is going to happen?!?" it is heroic.

+1
The "heroic" property should manifests in the mindset rather than the dose per se. Otherwise it's just a big dose.

Yes

Usually, or in Mckenna's terms, heroic is a dose where you stop dabbling and go for it (with trembling knees). Still you cannot take the dose itself entirely out of the context since whatever your mindset, 1 gram dried cubensis is not a heroic dose

 

[sunshroom]

Not necessarily, friend of mines would consider any does of psychedelics heroic, considering his previous experience. So it really is extremely subjective.

 

[Brugmansia]

A hundred crossing identities are [YOU] at the peak. Our living brains are biologically all the same.

At the peak of such a dose it's when you literally do not care anymore whether you'll return back to a proper cognitive perception, or not. As well as not caring whether you'll ever return to the state in where you're perceiving your living posture as your unambiguous self. There's no fear anymore to lose the connection with the slumbering commitment you actually never choosed through a conscious will. Try to breath with relaxtion as long as the defractalisation runs and try to enjoy it's beauty and frailty, everything that falls into your eye sight, overpowers amazement. Your locomotion is completely as an alien or natural robot, feel the mucus on your head and hands.

Once it's over, the gratitude of the regained soberness, and having your flawless identity back, is a connection with God. You have obtained [YOUR] belief rather than a definite truth. A greater responsible self-control has never been known before. The normal life is now the here-after, the relief of having an individual choice through control which we had gotten because of our physical birth. Prior to such an experience, we were oblivious of this, and kept searching for a sequel of life in the form of religion. Which is too much of an imaginary concept for a psychonaut.

An heroic dose doesn't change anything once it's over, it bounces one back to what he or she would be without any external modification, just it's pure grown DNA without any non-native influence of any other existing identity and it's own unique concept. Regular use of moderated amounts is known for creating alienated dreamers detached from reality. You won't repeat an heroic dose that often. You won't get stuck into a window of "doubt" between two realities. You better be aware of both sides individually. Two worlds are sustainable as long as you don't put one into another.

Mushrooms are displaying this concept brighter to one's self than LSD, I'd say. An heroic dose of mescaline even better, but hard to get enough of it in your system and it's material availability is an issue as well. Smoked DMT is too short, I have never tried ayahuasca, so I wouldn't know about that brew.

It depends a lot for each individual, mindset, setting, physical condition, energy levels etc. But what is for certain, is that some reach their breakthrough with definitely smaller amounts. However, find out for yourself and do various experiences seperately before you push yourself to the limit.

Subjectively I'd say in optimalised preperation on all points, all alone (with a sitter of course if prefered) it doesn't change that much from one to another:

Psilo: 6 grams dried
DMT: 80/100 mg
LSD: 500 ug
Mescaline: Never could do it at the max, but as much as dried cactus material I'd say at an empty stomach, preferable lots of dried peyote, or pure mescaline at 600 mg

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Usually, or in Mckenna's terms, heroic is a dose where you stop dabbling and go for it (with trembling knees).

I wonder to what extent Terence was really experiencing such anxiety. When I heard McKenna describe his high dose experiences, I thought everyone experienced such anxiety, but throughout the years I've heard about numerous people who don't experience any fear prior to their trips, while they take the kinds of dosages suggested by Brugmansia, or more. Some nervousness perhaps, but nothing that makes one a 'hero' in the ordinary sense of the word. So although it may have something to do with ordinary courage, it's much more a matter of having the right mindset, theoretical understanding and experience to up the dose.

 

[Brugmansia]

A humble mindset, not feeling too enthusiastic or energetic because that'll get a radical switch which makes the downfall more of an unprepared happening. Draining any tension out of your body and mind is a conditioning which lies the most in line with flowing within the energy fields.

Take a bath (or a nice shower) at the right temprature for about 30 minutes or something, close the eyes and think about the dissolution waiting ahead, feel the motion of the water when you move a little. Make sure than on such a day, you don't confront yourself with too much information, get through the first hours of the day with no internet, TV etc and avoid too much brain activity in general. Eat a healthy breakfast.

 

[Proteus]

I think its best to build up to large doses. Taking a much larger does than you're used to could be earth shatteringly amazing or it could be uncomfortable & distracting enough to limit how far you can let go into it, defeating the purpose. A couple of times when that's happened to me I've felt it to be a waste.

Psilocybin mushrooms are all I really have to work with. A problem I have with them is that if I take a really large dose in order to push myself over the invisible edge I end up forgetting most of the experience except the come up and the come down. Its like beyond a certain point my mind just shuts down normal memory processing. That's a pain because I want to remember what happened!

 

[Brugmansia]

I second that, divided trips to gain trust is definitely a must. Smashed through an excess of hyper stimulation is often only counterproductive in the end. A responsible jump to amazement however = :shock: 8) < in that order.

 

[user_1919]

Didn't read everyones post but please be careful taking MAOI with substances. I have read not to combine mescaline with MAOI as it can cause bodily harm. Just please do research before playing with substances, MAOI in particular.

As for heroic doses, take 5 grams dried and sit in a dark, silent room. You will be shown a heroic dose.

peace, love, light & unity!

 

[aryaman]

I don't really like taking shrooms in the dark of a room. Or maybe I just don't like my room.
I felt more heroic with 5 grams in a forest than 8 grams in my dark room.

I think you can understand it is an heroic dose just little after you ingested it.
Like "holy shit... that is definetly too much. Hope I'll survive. Now calm down".
Before you can guess it will be heroic, but you can't be sure (also depend on the quality of substance, set, ecc.).

 

[silv]

For me higher doses bring just a quite different experience from smaller doses, although I see the worth in both types. I find going out in to the forest supplies you with so much sensory input that a smaller dose might be more apropriate. A cut down tree looks quite disturbing also on lower doses. However the lower dose made me more able to move on to more positive associations with living trees (jebus, that sounds vague :S). Both have their uses, although that apprehension/anxiety before a bigger dose is also quite an interesting experience in itself. The bigger doses are more introspective for me i think.