Freedom of Religion

[GregKasarik]

Here is a link to an article of mine that should be of interest to many on these pages.

http://www.kasarik.com/The-Freedom-of-R ... actice.php

Comments are welcome!

 

[spice]

Hi Greg,
'Freedom of Religion' is just a proxy battleground, I believe, as the real battle is within, as well as without, and it's a battle for just....well, freedom....

I used to be where you are at in regards to the whole idea of nature as a 'legitimate' source of religion.


It's just not going to happen.


The entire history of our kind is bedeviled by the endless urge to tell each other what to do. This is something that is so hardwired into us that we aren't even aware we do it many times....I suspect that the very process of our lengthy development from child to adult pre-wires us to the politics (and psychological dynamics of) control. It is innate within us to polarize ourselves into 'controller' and 'controlled' within the confines of a relationship, we don't know how to do anything else.(and that is because our culture has never allowed us to try)
Because of this, all of our systems of thought are polluted with this control-dynamic, look around you....government, religion, family heirarchies....The first (and only, really) problem is in convincing other people that they don't have the right to tell anyone else other than the person in the mirror how to live.

This is the entire problem summed up in a nutshell


The proof that it is the problem is simply seen by looking anywhere, whether it's our drug laws, the history of our kind, or the conspiracy between government and religion to enslave the populace, it doesn't matter where you look, the common thread that runs through it all is one of entitlement, the entitlement that some fucking wack-job group (or individual) gets in their head pertaining to 'know' how other people should live.....

I don't believe it can be fixed from within the confines of the legal system, sorry......


Look at it from their perspective; (and we HAVE to do this, because they are incapable of looking at it from ours)

What's in it for them?

well, nothing, and that's the trick....unless and until they see a benefit from allowing this, they won't grant anyone this freedom, there's no benefit to a control faction to grant people the ability to free their mind.

I'm a bit of a pessimist on working within the confines of the system anymore, any freedom will have to be taken, it will never be given willingly.


sorry, but I wish you luck :|

 

[GregKasarik]

Spice, I understand your pessimism, but am a little confused. Your signature says, "fight the good fight", but you seem to have given up without actually joining the battle. I am a fighter, a former soldier, who isn't well versed in the art of backing down against the odds. I don't know how successful I'll be, but if I don't try, oblivion is guaranteed. But as an eternal being, what does it matter if the odds are against me? If I am not successful this time, I'll simply relive this life until I am. Its not like I have anything better to do with my time, so why not fill it with a challenges worthy of a generation of lifetimes? And who knows, maybe this is the time in which I succeed!

From a more mundane perspective, the fact is that the use of Entheogens forms a significant part of my religious belief system. This, combined with the most obvious fact that the founders of my country have gone to the effort of enshrining the freedom of religious expression into the very document on it was built, means that I not only have the right to use these substances, but a duty to ensure that my rights under law and basic morality are upheld. I intend to do my best to fight for these rights and to work with others in order to ensure that we don't witness a repeat of the negative impacts that the foolish, unrestricted and uneducated use of these can bring about.

I disagree with you, when you say that there isn't anything in it for the powers who largely control our lives. Because there is. Remember that the use of Entheogens was a hobby of the elite before Bear Stanley and others unleashed it upon the unsuspecting masses. They are not the faceless control freaks that you seem to think they are, but rather men and women of flesh and blood, who often care passionately about the welfare of those they attempt to govern. But the reality is that they are as ignorant of these substances as any secondary school kid and are still living in the media instilled fear of the sixties. They stand to benefit from the systematic incorperation of Entheogenic use into society.

Although the churches will object, but who really cares what they think?

The media, with their passion for sensation and lack of concern about the truth are our real enemy, but there are some who respect truth and fight in their own way for the betterment of all. I hope to co opt at least some of their number, tilting the odds in my favour somewhat.

Take heart! The fight hasn't yet begun and victory is assured.

Eventually!!

 

[spice]

....and so we begin.


"Spice, I understand your pessimism, but am a little confused. Your signature says, "fight the good fight", but you seem to have given up without actually joining the battle."


No, Greg, I have been fighting the battle.

I have fought it on multiple venues, wearing different armors, from different vantage points. Those 2000+ posts by my username detail much of it. Also, I am from America (No, I do not say this with pride, as i should be able to) and I daresay that I come from a bit 'farther down the road' than the point you are on, on this particular path. Your optimism, I admire, I will grant you that, but Australia, as you are finding, is ran, ultimately by that industrialized group of white guys who all have their roots in the UN and international banks....no political process is going to fix this, because they control the process, utterly and completely. You won't win fighting Panzers with legal writs and protests and petitions, I'm sorry.

The only way to beat them, is to remove their control of the venue, and the only way you can really do that is to trigger anarchy, because their venue is civilized culture, aka western civilization ....hence, eventually, the realization that you can leave them to their devices, and carry on your agenda in other non-direct ways which may ultimately further the entire process, bearing in mind a strong lesson from psychedelics, which is that all progress is not linear, not predictable. The answer frequently arrives via left field.

Seen in this light, the erosion of their game has already began, and is ongoing....

you said:

"They are not the faceless control freaks that you seem to think they are, but rather men and women of flesh and blood, who often care passionately about the welfare of those they attempt to govern. "

Ah, but when they espouse the zeitgeist that they know whats best for me, they are faceless control freaks this manner of thinking defines them as such, not me.

You give them too much credit.

You say:

"They stand to benefit from the systematic incorperation of Entheogenic use into society."

Again, I ask; How?

 

[_Avatar_]

If you really have a religious approach to the use of psychedelics, you don't really have to engage in any fight. You simply grow your own psychedelics in the privacy of your home, you ingest them in a secluded place, and no one's going to bother you. I already experience this religious freedom right now.

It's when I want to set up an organization that employs psychedelics that I would run into trouble. But most of us don't care about setting up such an organization, so there really isn't much of a problem. Smoking weed in public would also get me into trouble, but is that really essential religious practice? The same for all recreational ways of using psychedelics. There's no way you're going to convince any governmental agency that psytrance festivals are religious ceremonies.

 

[GregKasarik]

Spice. I had a browse through your posts on this forum and it is an impressive body of work that you have achieved with respect to your understanding of Entheogens and their effects.

However, while you are obviously an expert in these areas and obviously have much more experience in the world of psychonautics than I, I'll have to say that when it comes to the world of politics, particularly Australian politics, I may have more experience and a more nuanced view of the world than you.

The reason for this is that I have been actively involved in Australian politics for many years and have spoken with a fair number of those on the conservative side, including ministers in the previous Federal government and members of the current Victorian opposition. They are certainly not run "by that industrialized group of white guys who all have their roots in the UN and international banks". Rather they are more concerned with reading the pulse of their constituents and with implementing policies that will meet their ideological and political objectives.

Certainly none of them are likely to be coming out in favour of Entheogens, without a change in the public perception of these compounds, but I don't think that that will be a surprise to anybody. But with work, it is possible, and politics is the art of the possible and nothing gets handed to you on a platter. I have a vision, and I will work to make that vision a reality. I may not succeed, but it won't be because of some global conspiracy in which secret cabals control the sheeplike population, instead it will be because my vision was not engaging enough and could not inspire enough to follow in its wake.

I am surprised that you would ask me how they would stand to benefit from the systematic encorperation of the use of Entheogens into society. Surely the answers to this are obvious to you? If not, why have you spent so many years dedicated to their research and promulgation?

Simply put, they will assist in creating a better, more self aware society, in which the principle, "Act with Empathy", is not a stranger. Entheogen use can replace the often violent and dangerous use of alcohol, creating safer streets and creating a better, safer world for their children. One in which they can walk the streets without fear of attack.

That this is something that is possible, we both know. Our mission and goal should be to communicate this to the outside world, rather than scurrying around like mice in the corners of the room, ever afraid to step into the open for fear of the consequences.

Which brings me to Avatar's remarks. I am sick of the lies. I am sick of the deception. I am sick of having to pretend to be something I am not. I meet people who I respect greatly, at work, in the streets and through friends, but when it comes to discussions about key aspects of myself I am afraid to tell them anything beyond that I am a mystic.

But I am not a mouse! I am not a cockroach to be scurrying in the darkness and feeding off scraps in the night. I am a fighter, a person of strong personal principle, who is not used to backing down, particularly when I know that I am right. I have a dream of creating a world in which people can freely use non-toxic, non-addictive and psychologically safe compounds for their spritual advancement, without being judged a druggie, or a junkie, or some sort of uncontrollable addict.

A world in which we can all hold our heads up in public and be proud of who we are and what we represent.

A world in which we can live!!!

 

[IJesusChrist]

The world treats you as you treat the world.

You teach others how to treat you.

Bitterness propogates bitterness - same goes with pessimism.

Spice, I do not doubt you have great merit in your beliefs, but it does not help to completely dismantle one from politics. As painful as it may be at times, it's how the world operates [now]. We can't get rid of politics instantaneously, we can however change its course, content, and instructors... slowly.

Dirty politicians deserve no mercy, but accepting the fact that their removal isn't easy, and bartering with them is probably the only way to go is disgusting, but it's probably the only way at this time. Unless we want seperatism... war.

 

[spice]

My point precisely, thank you for making it.


Conflict and separation are what our history is built upon, as nations, and as cultures.


Guys, it is not un-natural to divide opinions in a large group of people, um, it's called democracy in action.

Why do you think, tell me, either of you, that the right to bear arms was written into the constitution?

Because Tom Jefferson wanted to make sure we could hunt?

Get real.....it's there because they were astute observers of human nature, and they knew that without the fear of being over ran and overthrown by a pissed-off populace, politicians will do exactly what they have done, mercilessly herd us about until we are in the 'positions' they deem appropriate....

the 'freedom of religion' part of the constitution can only be applicable IF YOU ARENT ALREADY IN CHAINS.......



IJC- you say--- "Bitterness propogates bitterness - same goes with pessimism."


I'll challenge that, and say, thats a very general statement.....evaporation of water vapor 'propagates' rain too, but that is an indirect example of cause and effect,and even at that not nearly as applicable to a grey area situation such as what we speak of.

Being 'pessimistic' is simply a reflection of the reality that exists within the historic record.....do you, ANY of you, actually think and believe (and IJC, you know better, because you are aware of the Tax act of 1937, you KNOW why all this stuff is illegal, and it doesnt have a god-fucking-damn thing to do with religion) that your government (and greg, your government in Australia answers to the same shadowy bunch that all the rest of them answer to) is going to simply wake up one day and say


'you know, let's actually care, lets give a shit'


Please show me some glimmer of hope that you base this on....



IJC they are taking ruthless advantage of people like you who believe that if we just ask them nicely enough, they'll capitulate, well, wake up....they won't do it.

For a roadmap into the future, all you really have to do is watch Great Britain. QE2 is the ultimate ruler of Australia, the Gov only answers to her.

She is a proven, established international banking tool/pawn/rubberstamp, as well as being a member of other, less prestigious organizations, and with a track record that isn't so hot, pertaining to independent thinking and honest, transparent government.

(Yeah, who killed Diana Spencer? Ask the real question, why)

Anyway, I believe that the only real way to have freedom, of any kind, is to divorce oneself from modern Western Civilization as much as possible, in as many ways as possible. Renounce it.

Western Civilization is the prison. They are not going to give you a voice because you have asked nicely for it.

Read history, you know damn well what I am telling you is on the money.


That being said, it's still a great idea to stand up for your beliefs, and maybe I'll be wrong.

But I don't think so

 

[IJesusChrist]

Spice you speak truth to a very great degree, but I just don't WANT to believe that they are as corrupt or dark as they were in the early 1900's... and certainly not as bad as monarchies.

I think the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building was on your train of thought, however I think his strings just snapped. When the government is allowed to say "Oh, it's just one guy" I think they are asking for that type of response.

To be completely honest, I just don't want to believe the government is that corrupt. I want to believe they are just playing dumb, that they aren't actually evil people, but so many are, so many get away with certain actions under the table - they build on that. When they don't get caught they repeat it and test their limits of power. Unfortunately, the only way we can know they are doing anything wrong at all is the media. Point made.

It's gross, I'd rather just not think of it. I think the rule of thumb with government is;

If you're emotional towards its control... DO something radical. Break the damn laws.
If you don't want to do anything, you best not be emotional or you'll go fucking nuts sitting doing nothing.

My dad's like that, at times I told him, you can't get so worked up about this stuff. If it's that far out of your control, you have to ignore it, or you really have to put yourself to work stopping it... its just not healthy otherwise.

 

[spice]

yes, and everyone has a different vehicle which they would use if they were to attempt to battle it, this is why I told Greg above, I admire and respect what you're trying to do, I just don't have the degree of faith he does in the systems decency.
The system is comprised of people, who I believe are innately decent, (albeit lazy and a little too willing to be led) but they are allowed to function sociologically as organizations, LLCs, companies, whatever, and a strange thing happens within this group when they are given this freedom from personal responsibility, and that is the double standard of behaivour begins to apply, and you have organizations getting away with behaivour patterns which are reprehensible applied to individual behaivoural dynamics.

For instance, it is drilled into us all (and rightly so) to not litter... 'don't litter' is a popular slogan that everyone knows. Its not; ' pay $250 and get to litter 50 pounds in the next 6 months'

It isn't the standardized corporate set of ethics, which are ; 'we'll pay for a 'permit' which allows us to dump x amount of pollutants of a certain type within a certain timeframe'

In other words, corporations have more rights than individuals....

If you accept this as true (don't just take my simplistic example above as your proof, think about it and i will wager you can come up with a lot of good examples of what I am talking about. Then consider that the entire system of politics is based on the protection and advancement of this double-standardized mentality, and I again ask you how you think that you will be granted the status of a corporation.

If you think I'm full of it, then ask yourself, 'whats mk-ultra' you know what it was.....the US govt military getting away with things people are imprisoned for life for....

whats Blackwater?


But, yeah....you have to do something, everyone does what they can

 

[ophiuchus]

everyone must do what they can.

or else we're fucked

 

[IJesusChrist]

I'm gon' run for president! I'll change the way things are for sure!

.....

jokesz

 

[HermesTrismegistus]

Thanks for your post GregKasarik!

I can only say, keep walking on that path you are on! I really do love to read that i am not the only ONE who is walking that narrow pathway! It's late right now, but tomorrow i will pay some more attention to your website and maybe have some more comments on your post.

Greets and love,
Hermes.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Yes, Greg, I hope that I did not give you any negative momentum in what you're doing with my comments. I was mostly just speaking to spice.

Greg;

Keep doing what you are doing. You are doing a great thing.

 

[ophiuchus]

+1

 

[_Avatar_]

Last week I was listening to a conversation between Rak Razam and Dennis McKenna. Dennis pointed out that in Peru the religious centers (Santo Daime, UDV etc.) can openly serve ayahuasca, because governments have declared such usage part of their cultural heritage. The healing centers on the other hand must hide the fact that they employ ayahuasca...

 

[GregKasarik]

Thanks for the comments and encouragement. If I am to succeed, I will certainly need the support of the entire worldwide community.

Spice, I certainly won't disagree with you that much of our current system is corrupted and that hypocrisy runs riot within our society. Politicians know that it is easier to destroy than it is to create and it requires hard work in order to build something. This is why they take the wide path of demonising Entheogens, rather than then narrow road of educating people and allowing them to make their own decisions. People are certainly prone to error, deciet and evil, but they are also prone to empathy, love, compassion and the power of reason. It is our job to promote the latter by putting ourselves in into the public eye and by saying "enough"!

As a soldier, I would have given my life for my country should it have been required. How can I not make the lesser sacrifice of devoting my life to the process of building a society in which the rights of all are recognised and in which Empathy for others is held as the highest ideal? As much as people would like, there are no easy answers and no simple solutions. The world is a complex place and I know that if I am Eternal, then I will have many more lives in this place (eternity is a bloody long time...). It behoves me to make sure that the society in which they are lived is as open and tolerant as possible. Yes, there is the near certainty that what I achieve in this life will be corrupted by those who follow, but this is exactly the sort of challenge that an eternal being is ideally suited for.

In any case, I am sick of my own lies and evasion. I live in a world that persecutes people such as ourselves, simply because we choose a path that is right for us even though it doesn't lead to harm for others. I intend to stand on my own two feet and fight for my constitutional right to practice my religion as I see fit.

In some universes I will succeed, in others I will fail. The real tragedy will occur in those universes where I don't even try.

Take Care,

Greg

PS Sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread. Unfortunately, I get so caught up in what I am doing that I forget to check back.