freedom of/from thought

[BrainEater]

thinking seems to be such a big part of our culture, yet sometimes it feels to me that thinking itself has become the disease and this can be seen directly in the culture and in how people talk etc etc. well i guess many can't see it, because they are so absorbed in it and can't take a step back and observe or so.
so if we are slaves to our own thoughts or thoughts that we think are our own then what is the damn point? then we would only be perpetuating a stupid program or so.
if we are not observing the thought process, then we are possibly being attached and drawn into it and as i said then it's more likely that it controls us than we control it.
if we are not able to do that, i would say it could be beneficial to turn off the thought process, because in that context attention is energy and i think it also means something if the thoughts are consuming our energy.
well i think the mind is like a process and it's like it just does what its told and what its programs are or something like that and in it that way it can be imprisoned. so consciousness is the key and i think it's not really about observing and judging, but more about observing and simply being aware.
another intriguing idea in that context is that the most effective slaves are those that think they are free. and this has seemingly become embedded subliminally in our so called culture, if it can be generalized, but i do feel that its like that..
it's like a subtle mind imprisonment that they are doing in terms of "you must think along those lines or exactly that" or comparable shit. it has got to do with language, but it's also beyond language in some way. we are told to ignore certain things so that it's like being made taboo or so and so that we can't see what's really going on. it's like it makes us observers in a bad way to the outside world as if we think we are not a part of it anymore or something like that.
and this is the reason why it's so important to be able to observe the thought process, because when we can observe it we are not identifying with it and then can transform it. the quantum observer effect: the observer changes the observed.
well i often think a lot of crazy shit, sometimes more and sometimes less positive... so i am probably not observing myself well enough or so. maybe i just identify too much with the expressions of the thoughts instead of being aware of that what is behind the thoughts. hmm but yeah that's why i am trying to look deeper into myself.
i think one of the things that have been holding me back is language, because often people don't understand it the way i do and also in my own thought process it sometimes feels like i am limiting myself by the concepts of the words that i have formed.
hmm well i guess i am just trying to free myself and my mind from all the bullshit...
what are your thoughts???


peace

 

[zezt]

Thinking is usually thought of as words being heard-like in the mind. But thinking could also include that and images that come into the mind as well. Agreed?

I am aware that many who are influenced by Eastern beliefs think of thinking as some kind of barrier to 'being aware of the moment' etc and so will do a practice they call 'meditation' so as to get to a state where they say thought end and there is a state of deep attention.

I am suspicious of all that. Although I agree with you that many people are controlled by limited thinking also. Take the racist. He will be thinking along a toxic rigid way which he has thought maybe since very young, and he becomes a very ugly individual which shows in his face and demeanor, and dangerous. But basically his thinking is rigid.

but another more gentle example could be someone who only likes one style of music, and will hate when he hears other styles. Or he may wear a certain style of clothes, and resent others who wear other styles. And so on. And all these rigid worldviews come with the thinking processes of course. So maybe this is why some beliefs claim that 'thinking' itself then is the enemy and we need to control thought, and/or devise ways to get to states where thought ceases.
I have been through phases thinking that also.

All I can explain is how I feel myself. I do not try and control thought, and do not meditate if by that term is means sit still trying to get to a place where there is no thinking. I just allow myself freedom to think, because that I feel is my natural being. BUT I allow thinking to ask questions, and questions include looking into this history of looking at thinking as being some kind of enemy or barrier to 'deeper states of awareness'.

I have come at this question from different angles. One of them has being looking closer at the guru system from the East where these ideas come mostly from. Where 'holy men' with beards make out they have reached a state of non-thinking and so on. And I have found out that most of it is BS and an excuse to exploit believers in them. Boiled down it is a group of humans looking up to a human and believing that human to be superhuman!

THINK that, and ask questions regarding that, and see the re-action you get from the starry-eyed 'thoughtless' devotees.8)

 

[ophiuchus]

"maybe i just identify too much with the expressions of the thoughts instead of being aware of that what is behind the thoughts."

:thumbsup:

"i think one of the things that have been holding me back is language, because often people don't understand it the way i do and also in my own thought process it sometimes feels like i am limiting myself by the concepts of the words that i have formed."

totally agree.

 

[Crimzen]

i also agree 100% to what allusion quoted

language is only a made up way to communicate our thoughts and emotions to other humans, each language is different and will have better ways of communicating different ideas, no language is complete otherwise we'd never be lost for words in times of awe and we'd never be misunderstood by other humans
language is not flawless and so i think alot of thought is done slightly behind the voice you hear in your head before you translate it for yourself into the language you know most fluently
im pretty stoned and running kinda late, if i have time tonight i'll come back and give a more in depth reply
Pz

 

[BrainEater]

well i like how you seem to be able to think for yourselves... i think language can be a strange thing, because at some point it seems like it can trigger thoughts and some people are totally stuck in their speech processors or something like that and controlled by the judgemental system that has formed through it.
i think it's good to be suspicious, but not enough or too much. basically i think with language we can imprison our minds, but we can also transcend it for example by focussing only on the pure experience. because language is like abstraction from reality and a tool like that and if you are controlled by the tool so to say, then there's probably something wrong, right?? i also think there are a lot of people that simply want to control other people for the sake of controlling...
and with such people i would ask myself what do they need to ego-compensate like that or so... i dunno lol.. the world can be very strange lol...


peace

 

[zezt]

In my second LSD trip many years ago, I was to see how limited language was, and would start talking 'gibberish' and giggling. it was just impossible to try and translate what I was experiencing into language. It was too slow, and clumsy, and one-word-at-a-time

This is why singing and chanting are usually prominent in sacred rituals, because they are more flowing. Wouldn't it be great if we could do that in some exchanges we have? We already do it when we laugh together, but not often that we would start doing gibberish, or chanting. MAYBE rap is a form of it...? But done in a more surreal way.

of course writing or typing is when you need be articulate so people can get your meaning. Talking to of course....but ya know what I mean:yawinkle:

 

[Crimzen]

i think the fact alone that theres usually only 2-3 common opinions on a large topic like a news article or something, proves that there is a subtle but effective form of mind control over people living in modern society

so consciousness is the key and i think it's not really about observing and judging, but more about observing and simply being aware

I couldnt agree more, consciousness is our unique experience that allows us to do things other than instinct, its what allows us to seemingly break free from our chemical processes or rather it allows us to weave them differently in our own brains with thought and emotion

sometimes more and sometimes less positive... so i am probably not observing myself well enough or so. maybe i just identify too much with the expressions of the thoughts instead of being aware of that what is behind the thoughts

Im guilty of the same thing, although sometimes i'll even be aware of whats really behind my thoughts and still identify with them due to emotional attachment
thats just part of being human i think, though not necessarily..

you would be a truly wise man if you could simply observe your mind and own thoughts every moment of the day
but what would you get out of the experience in the end?

@zezt
i think you're right about singing and chanting at rituals to communicate further than language can on its own
laughing together is also something transcending language
i think music is something we've created to fill in alot of the gaps, it can convey an emotion simply with tones of sound, to me its incredible that we even have such a reaction to music at all, it being simply sound, not directly translated into any form of coherent language by the brain yet understood or picked up somehow
its funny that you mention rap because im an mc, i often think of my rhymes as a way to convey things that i cant usually get across or cant fully express
but it is still chained by language although its kind of a way of using language instead of being used by it

 

[ararat]

you would be a truly wise man if you could simply observe your mind and own thoughts every moment of the day
but what would you get out of the experience in the end?

rather ask yourself what you get out of it if you don't observe yourself.
sometimes it can seem really hard, though. when I am so identified with my thoughts, and I try to observe myself, I try to do so via my thoughts, which completely misses the point and is painfully reductive of experience. real observation happens if it comes from awareness, by being aware of inner space, of nothingness.

I read a quote by Krishnamurti the other day: "Observation without evaluation is the highest form of intelligence"

 

[zezt]

@zezt
i think you're right about singing and chanting at rituals to communicate further than language can on its own
laughing together is also something transcending language
i think music is something we've created to fill in alot of the gaps, it can convey an emotion simply with tones of sound, to me its incredible that we even have such a reaction to music at all, it being simply sound, not directly translated into any form of coherent language by the brain yet understood or picked up somehow
its funny that you mention rap because im an mc, i often think of my rhymes as a way to convey things that i cant usually get across or cant fully express
but it is still chained by language although its kind of a way of using language instead of being used by it

Yes, sorry to not mention music itself. That is the greatest connector between all people. HOWEVER, for some mindsets they are hostile to other styles of music. Some people hate rap, or music that is coming from other cultures, and even our own. So it is like there are for some people blocks to diverse forms of music --which is sad. because music itself is a very deep language with many facets

I hold laughing as extraordinarily important as a means of going deeper than our usual rational understanding of language. I of course don't mean nasty laughter that is sadistic and meant to put people down, but rather ecstatic laughter than sees through the matrix we are creating--the masks of pretence we wear. Laughter like that dissolves all of the phony facades created to divide us. And this is why I try and integrate this into day to day life. Not forcing it, but naturally allowing myself to laugh at lots of stuff others may not see as funny. It is playful---something adults are trained to leave behind in childhood, unless pissed on booze/drugs.

it is interesting to hear your an MC, because I love rap. But often when people are very good they can often deliver rhymes that are bound by their cultural conditioning. I would like rappers to get their head right around the matrix in deepest way possible --the roots of it, the tricks it plays, its tentacles around us and even in us--and rhyme this in very enlightening complex ways. For example like pointing to the very lingo they is rappin in (meta-rap? lol)...if you get me lol. The possibilities of exploration are endless, and 'gibberish' could be a big part of it too!...gettin excited thinking bout it:drool:

 

[Crimzen]

rather ask yourself what you get out of it if you don't observe yourself.
sometimes it can seem really hard, though. when I am so identified with my thoughts, and I try to observe myself, I try to do so via my thoughts, which completely misses the point and is painfully reductive of experience. real observation happens if it comes from awareness, by being aware of inner space, of nothingness.

I read a quote by Krishnamurti the other day: "Observation without evaluation is the highest form of intelligence"

Well i meant that its basically unrealistic to sit there and monitor your thoughts all day long but i get you
i just got given a book to do with krishnamurti actually...

 

[BrainEater]

i guess the basic idea is that the thoughts do influence, if not completely create, the reality you experience. therefore the observation of the thought process would mean that you are conscious about what you are creating and experiencing or not. of course there can be a lot of differences, like for example whether you can detach from the thoughts which in some way
could simply mean whether you can observe the thoughts without having to make a judgement about the thoughts.
an interesting description i heard or read somewhere was that our minds are not something that we are or have, but in the most
basic sense what we do. it can probably good to be able to be dynamic in/with the thought process or to be solid or so...
hard to explain... because reality sometimes can be not as nice or cooperative as we may have wished... well i know this is probably not the best way to say it but hopefully you know what i mean lol.. don't you think there can be dumb or intelligent realities??? :-o :lol:

well as far as i can see, this would just be an expression of how underrated and missunderstood or so the dimension of thought is. how life and the world etc etc is a dream etc etc... i suppose a lot of people have lost that primal sense for reality.
they have subscribed to limited paradigms and i have had the feeling that they want to drag me down to their level quite often, actually... but i don't really think that it's good to allow that in general.. i guess it's probably a bit like how states and governments
act. and if you ask me, i would say it should be common sense that retardism, ignorance and violence have been having way too much power in a lot of history. i just want to mention the words "ugly smiles" here to make that a little bit more clear. :? :\\

i think the key is awareness of the place or rather not-place or whatever it could be called like where the thoughts are created / come from. what i mean is probably just something like "know yourself" so that others can't tell you shit about you. but still try to remain open-minded in a healthy common sense way or so... just don't believe the lies and all the bullshit.. be yourself!! hmm lol that reminds me a bit of what i think morpheus said in the matrix "there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"... hmm how philosophical lol... :razz:
and what i am rather sure of is that in most cases it's probably better if you are able to control your thoughts instead of your thoughts controlling you, know what i mean?? because sometimes the ego-mind can be a real bitch lol..
so what can be done is to practice mindfulness. and this can be done while awake and asleep. i would say a lot of people
are more sleepwalkers and sometimes it seems as if they are machines, too... just doing their programs lol... so retarded lol.
well i wouldn't say that i am myself already completely free from that shit at all, but yeah... the world is just sometimes such a strange place and people act as if it's all normal... it's simply shocking!!!

i would even agree with the statement of morpheus that human beings are being changed into being something like "batteries".
just agreeing with the realization and not with the deception that they try to hide... hmm maybe the idea of how working is seen should be revolutionized... personally, i just hate the meaninglessness that is pushed on us by trying to make us believe that we are nothing more than our egos and the only thing with which we can define us is separation... if you ask me, some things should surely be re-thought!! ah well i think unfortunately i can't completely describe what i possibly mean lol... maybe something like
the primitivity and morbidity of the "machine paradigm". it's like an insult to our intelligence!!! have you noticed how subliminally "they" have tried to reduce us to objects or numbers or so more??? :|
anyway.... i would suggest that you simply wake up!!! something like that lol... :razz:



peace

 

[zezt]

Well i meant that its basically unrealistic to sit there and monitor your thoughts all day long but i get you
i just got given a book to do with krishnamurti actually...

I first heard of Krishnamurti (K for short) from reading Alan Watts. Watts had such an influence on me at that time, that I naturally felt the need to checkout this K dude he was writing about. I became a bit obsessive, buying his books and reading and re-reading them, and copying stuff he said --like as if to 'get-what-he-said-he had. It was the 'guru trip'. What was so pernicious about this was that he CLAIMED to not be an authority, and so it was easy ti imagine you weren't being sucked into his power...? I never went and sat at his feet, but like said was obsessive and sometimes would preach to people about what he said which must have bored them lol

As gurus do he always suggested HE had the 'enlightenment'; and you dont. So this disenfranchses the person. So for example he would say when he looks at nature he is seeing with out space between observer and observed, and in one of his books which has pictures of him 'The Awakening of Intelligence'--I was hooked on this phote of him looking, and to me he seems soooo looking deep haha. Now I am not saying he wasn't, but am trying to get across the thing that happens with the guru-trip whend you look up to another, and wanting what you THINK they have--this messes with your own sense of being

so example, most of the time I would look at nature but be thinking 'I haven't got it yet' etc etc. UNLESS of course I had taken psychedelic. K was anti-psychedelics surprise surprise (dont like the competition)--though hinter that they DO give you what he claimed he had all the time, seeing so directly, but then said they destroy the brain---and guess where he said he got this info from...?? READERS fukin DIGEST aranoid: The most reactionary Ronald Reagan-esque comic you could hope to get. I am also not saying people cannot abuse psychedelics, of course they can. But K was selling HIS shit and didn't want to lose followers, as most of the gurus dont. Supply and demand. First--they have to make you think you are missing some great thing Second--they have to make you think they HAVE that something you really want 3rd, there is no 3rd because they have got you!!
I remember this guy at the K meeting I would sometimes go to and see vids of the Old geezer, K talking. He orghanized this meeting, and was quite an intelligent lad, but I will always remember him for this forlorn voice of his saying 'I haven't got it yet!' meaning what he thought K had.

So what woke me up? Hmmm well, the think about being hooked to gurus is that stuff that COULD wake you out of the spell you often 'fail to hear' first time, OR you do hear things and make excuses for the guru. So for example , before I read the book I will tell you about, I had heard some stuff from it, but kind of ignored it. I also recently read a response to this book by a K devotee and could tell that the person was still hooked even after reading it. Its called Lives in the Shadow of Krishnamurti by his mistress, and it exposes what he was REALLY like behind the guru image he wore. One time he was accused of having an ego and he freaked!!

 

[ararat]

it doesn't seem surprising that people go on guru trips, considering that everybody in this culture is being raised to emotional and intellectual dependency (in schools, mostly, and by schooled parents), so it isn't very far to go to spiritual dependency. nobody seems to be told that they are enough. if you ask me, it seems like a wonder that some few people cometo be real adults (not the role-play-"I'm so responsible"-adults like most of the big childs, but people who are complete of themselves and they know it), even despite their whole surroundings not being very helpful in that regard. it is as if the authoritarian structure is some sort of unconscious illness in the collective human mind that tries to insert itself wherever possible.

what made me think of K as rather sincere is that he disregarded his high position in the theosophic society. may have been a clever move. but thinking about it, his writings were not very enlightening to me, even though they immensely seemed so.
any opinions on eckart tolle? I read "A new earth" by him the other day, and it was followed by some very beautiful experiences to be honest. exactly that freedom from thought, and experiencing something that he called "inner space", something I had forgotten for quite some time.

 

[BrainEater]

hmmm i guess i agree... the whole guru stuff can be misleading in various ways for example if you are having a hard time to detach from authority paradigms and seeing thru the game that is being played... dunno how to say it... and there's also always the danger of person/personality cults... which can be seen as an expression of the herd creature paradigm.
this can simply mean that people shut off their own thoughts regarding the subject and switch on the "following mode" or so...
i can say i don't like the naivete of a lot of people at all... it's like they can't see for themselves and need others for them to see... well but then again maybe this can simply be a sign of the times, too. how many people have lost the natural connection to themselves and the world. i actually think a lot of the responsability talk is a big deception and fear paradigms are ruling the ego drama game more than serving it right. hmm it's probably a matter of the image in society and also how it can be mistaken for what is really there...
there's just so much deception everywhere lol... but yeah i think it also depends a lot on how you look at it. for example expectation is a very related concept. however i just think really being able to listen can be a great talent/gift, too when you know yourself and can understand/relate to your own feeling. well the twisted ways of society can stand in the way of self-honesty and self-transformation, but if you understand that in the end you can only change yourself, i wouldn't doubt that you can do anything...


regarding the whole inner space, guru etc etc talk i would want to quote morpheus again lol.. i think it was something like "i can only show you the door, but you are the one who has to walk thru it"....
well however i would of course say not only gurus can show you something about or in yourself that you hadn't seen or paid attention to before. there can probably even be the tendency that because of impressions related to the concept of authority in that context, that a special person like a guru won't be able to show you what's in yourself as well as a close friend or a ordinary person or so. hmm maybe in essence all persons are the same persons.

it is as if the authoritarian structure is some sort of unconscious illness in the collective human mind that tries to insert itself wherever possible.

i found this to be true and i think it's truly insane.. i noticed it for example in normal persons
and how they seem to try to take the roles of cops or other roles...
it can also be a distortion for the recognition of real authority=truth... because what can happen is that authority tries to abuse its function or role or so...
i guess authority is a thing we should try to be a bit careful with. let truth be the authority.
and then what is truth??



i would say, that the truth is simply that "god is within" and the implications are often very much missunderstood. lightness of being can be experienced anytime, yet for example if you become deluded with inferiority/superiority consciousness or something like that all the time then the chances for real freedom are lesser. i know it sounds a bit cheesy, but isn't the idea of ego paradigm or something like that defined by that??




maybe the dimension of thought can be a basis for freedom, but also imprisonment. depending on how its being used or related to ... something like the "natural state of being" is an expression that could point towards what in my opinion all the self realization and guru talk etc etc is probably about. and i think it's in some sense probably so simple that it can become difficult to explain it.
similar to how you can only do it wrong if you try to express the inexpressible or so... and obviously that's of course only logical...
maybe sometimes the compulsion to talk or express the experience, truth or reality or so can stand in the way of the experience itself in some way... like language can be seen as a plain of thought, too, which can also be limiting and/or liberating.
i have had the experience that people change what you say and often seemingly rather unconsciously, for example to say how they understood it or to discredit you. so it can probably be beneficial to know what you say and how you mean it...
sometimes communication can be a difficult thing because of the language barrier and it has seemed to me various times as if people were only talking to themselves. basically i think time and how psychological it can be, is a main factor of this. i have heard that time and the mind are intricately connected and i have observed in others and myself how it can promote the compulsion of calculation. i mean it like how calculation in the modern world is almost seemingly becoming a requirement and how more basic things are overlooked etc etc... for example laughing.... :shock: :-o
hmm just some thoughts lol... :smile: i really hope it hasn't become too propagandalike or so....
just don't think you have to accept anything i say... i am a bit confused, you know?? :lol:




peace

 

[LysergicGanesha]

And I have found out that most of it is BS and an excuse to exploit believers in them. Boiled down it is a group of humans looking up to a human and believing that human to be superhuman!

Any Guru that teaches he is superhuman is no Guru. That is a deceiver. A guru is nothing more than a teacher, a wise-man, a person with either more experience or a gift with words so that they can explain their experience. To accept that there are people out there with more knowledge than YOU is hard, but it's true. No one is superhuman, but we are more than meatbags. We are all one.

"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
-Alan Watts

The idea that meditation is the absence of thought is a common misconception. Meditation, to me, is becoming hyper aware of the moment. Nothing more. A silencing of the Ego is simply a beneficial side effect.

For your consideration, Buddhas 4 Tetrads:
First Tetrad (1-4): Setting awareness up front , he breathes in aware of just that inhalation, he breathes out aware of just that exhalation, As he draws in a long breath he knows; 'I inhale a long breath'. As he breathes out a long breath he knows; 'I exhale a long breath'. As he draws in a short breath he knows; 'I inhale a short breath'. As he breathes out a short breath he knows; 'I exhale a short breath'. Resolute he repeats for himself:
Feeling the air diffuse through whole body, sensing whole body,I will inhale. Feeling the air diffuse through whole body, discerning the whole body, I will exhale. Calming the construction of this compounded body, I will inhale. Calming the construction of this compounded body, I will exhale.

Second Tetrad (5-8): Feeling great joy I will inhale. (piti) Feeling great joy I will exhale. Feeling the pleasure of calm happiness I will inhale. Feeling calm happiness I will exhale. (sukha) Discerning the process of mental construction, I will inhale. Experiencing the process of thought construction I will exhale. Calming the process of mental construction, I will inhale. Relaxing the process of mental construction, I will exhale.

Third Tetrad (9-12): Noting the current state of mind I will inhale. Perceiving the current mentality of mind I will exhale. Gladdening mind with a satisfaction I will inhale. Pleasing mind with contentment I will exhale. Focusing mind to composed concentration I will inhale. Centering mind into collected absorption I will exhale. Freeing mind into release, letting mind go, I will inhale. Freeing mind into the discharge of relief, liberating mind, I will exhale.

Fourth Tetrad (12-16): Reflecting on impermanence, I will inhale. (Anicca-anupassana) . Perceiving the momentary rise & fall, I will inhale. Reflecting on the fading of all passions, I will inhale. (viraga-anupassana) Reflecting on the fading of all obsessions, I will exhale. Reflecting on ending, disappearance, I will inhale. (nirodha-anupassana). Reflecting on ending, on stopping, I will exhale. Reflecting on letting go of, leaving behind, I will inhale. Reflecting on letting go of, leaving behind, I will exhale. (patinisagga-anupassana)

 

[zezt]

it doesn't seem surprising that people go on guru trips, considering that everybody in this culture is being raised to emotional and intellectual dependency (in schools, mostly, and by schooled parents), so it isn't very far to go to spiritual dependency. nobody seems to be told that they are enough. if you ask me, it seems like a wonder that some few people cometo be real adults (not the role-play-"I'm so responsible"-adults like most of the big childs, but people who are complete of themselves and they know it), even despite their whole surroundings not being very helpful in that regard. it is as if the authoritarian structure is some sort of unconscious illness in the collective human mind that tries to insert itself wherever possible.

what made me think of K as rather sincere is that he disregarded his high position in the theosophic society. may have been a clever move. but thinking about it, his writings were not very enlightening to me, even though they immensely seemed so.
any opinions on eckart tolle? I read "A new earth" by him the other day, and it was followed by some very beautiful experiences to be honest. exactly that freedom from thought, and experiencing something that he called "inner space", something I had forgotten for quite some time.

When it dawned on me that I had been unknowingly sucked into K's power--so to speak, or become somewhat obsessed--and the finding this out through reading the expose of him, I felt traumatized. I actually became physically ill for a while! I felt a deep sense of betrayal, and this was what made me realize that I HAD been taken over by his power, even though he would claim 'I am not an authority'. But you see when these people hold out the carrot of 'true enlightenment' they ARE becoming an author-ity, so it is rather an oxymoron to claim otherwise! And like I said I noticed it in others, like the guy who held the Friday evening meetings showing his videos. he was smitten.
Actually the very first time I saw a video of K, I was so shocked. he looked very thin and frail...lol

I have read the apporved book of his life story also, and this in itself I could write a book about, especially what I was going to find out later--about the Theosophists, the New Age and elite----research which all began post 9/11. Yes he was brought up within the confines of the New Age elite's religion!! These are very reactionary beliefs, and rightly K saw through them. BUT, what happned IMO that in his shock of the abuse he had got from all that indoctrination which even affected his Imagination--where he saw visions etc--he then tended to reject ALL visionary experience. This is shown in his angry reaction to a little girl in the book that woke me up. She mentioned fairies, and he told her off severely for beliving in them. Now I can see that his reaction was influenced by HIS shit. With his sense of abuse from the Theosophists. But this is complex--bear with me : I understand that there are two very distinct streams which author Robert Graves termed "solar esotericism and chthonic esotericism". The former includes the New Age and its roots in the ancient solar cults, whilst the latter is far more ancient and is connected with the Goddess religion of the Earth. So for example, nature spirits, or faeiries can very well be communed with. If you read up say on Ayahuasca indigenous traditions, you find the Ayahuesceros will say they found out their knowledge about healing plants and so on from the spirits of the plants they ingested, and this communication with spiritual beings is fairly common in indigenous cultures and was demonized and persecuted by the Church, and patriarchy in general, and as you know 'science' dismisses all this as nonesense and as pathology.

Now, with solar esotericism there happens a philosophical and psychological split between nature and spirit, and this affects their imaginal assumptions--so how does this manifest. Well (and this is something I am currently very interested in) you have heard of so-called 'channeling'? This is one of the central New Age rituals, but as rsearchers like Monica Sjoo and others have revealed, the kinds of 'entities' they contact reflect their OWN reactionary views--which include misogyny, racism, and denigration of nature, and eco-cidal intent (this is a MUST read about all this in depth by Monica Sjoo: Return of the Dark/Light Mother or New Age Armageddon? Towards a Feminist Vision of the Future


So I am trying to point to the understanding that just because groups have subverted and abused the whole experience of communing with 'other intelligences' does NOT mean that ALL communications with other intelligences is wrong, but this is this is what I think K stressed, and the reason he picked on the kid because she loved fairies. It was because of HIS trauma.

Now I re-read some notes yesterday and this is very good to know: "Many think that though a guru lies about his personal behaviour, his message is still essentially true...If being self-centred is an unavoidable aspect of being human, then any ideology that denies this will necessarily corrupt its promoters and believers. This is why images of purity corrupt...Sophisticated thinkers within Buddhism were aware that unconscious elements exist in the mind. But their interest in the unconscious is cloaked in an ideology that belives it is not only possible to become totally selfless, but having done so, one is totally conscious and no longer moved by unconscious factors...Our position is that the selfless and self-centred, altruism and egoism, are embedded in each other...two poles of an interwoven process that can only be defined in relation to the other...To attract followers, gurus must present themselves as enlightened (without ego), which includes having an unconscious. There is good reason for this: To surrender totally to another it is essential to believe that the recipient of such trust is not motivated by self-interest...The possibility of unconscious elements in the guru would mean that there could be unacknowledged or secret self-interest" (The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power

This will apply to all people who make their living giving out the image that they have 'found enlightenment'. Of course I read people, peoples ideas, their experiences etc--i LOVE reading Trip reports. But it is when you become obsessed with a person and believe they have and you don't which I strongly question. K would imply his audiences were dull. I saw this talk he gave sone--on video--where he interspersed his talk with looking at members of the audience and saying 'no---you haven't got it, you haven't got it'. Thjis is put-down but the STRATEGY is--even if he wouldn't admit it to himself--is to keep them coming back for more. because once you are reading or listening and watching him you can pretend you are closer to 'the truth'. This is the trick-hook!