First time on hallucigenics need help please...

[putdeksel]

Hi guys,

I'm following this forum for a few days now out of curiosity in hallucinogens and of course my personal philosophy of life. I would like some general info why one should trip in the first place.

First off, what is your philosophy in life, are you a Christian, Buddhist, Jew or anything like this. The reason why I ask is because I still got all these unsolved questions like:

-Where did we come from?
-Why are we here?
-Where are we going?
-Is there such thing as a divine maker/source?

Did your believes / faith change after the use of any drugs? Do any of you have the same thoughts like I do? LOL
Did any of the mind expanding drugs teach you anything or answered any of these 4 questions?
Like I said I'm fairly new to molecules like DMT, Psilocybin, LSA, LSD etc. I have tried weed more than a couple of times just to relax so to speak. So basically I have never used any hallucinogens.

I am particularly keen on DMT. I have read a lot about it. Even though I am totally unfamiliar with hallucinogens I think it would be a good start... what do you folks think?

 

[Light]

I wouldn't start with DMT.

Take some shrooms, maybe 10-15 grams fresh of Ps. Cubensis and focus on the questions you are asking yourself.

Then let the magic happen.

My own philosophy in life is hard to describe. I just try to let my consciousness grow. My biggest enemy is the fear. Even after years of psychedelic and non-psychedelic exploring, it is still there, but I learned to live with it for a big part. Before I started, I think I considered myself agnostic, but this soon passed after taking psychedelics. I don't really believe in a God or a super-being. I believed a long time that we were all one, and all that hippie bullshit, but came to the conclusion that that too was only in my mind. If others still see opposition where there is none, there is work to do and the hippie philosophy made me lethargic. It still does, a little.

When I started tripping I had some rapid transformations that helped me get settled in my own idea of reality and I gained a lot of confidence about my own nature. After a few years, the trips became more and more personal and effective in clearing out bad habits from my mind. I learned how to use psychedelics properly and in such a way as to heal my own mind. Everyone goes through such a learning curve. I'm still learning.

With DMT, you are shot out into something and back into your body within a few minutes. It is a very extreme experience and it is very hard to integrate it in a way that is constructive or enlightening. I personally see a lot more value in longer lasting trips, like mushrooms and LSD, it shakes you thoroughly and can result in major beneficial transformations if and only if you use them conscientiously. I don't like LSA either, because of the bad side-effects I get from the seeds in which it hides. But maybe it works for you, who knows?

 

[IJesusChrist]

Start with mushrooms. Easy to dose, easy to know you took the correct drug, and the emotions and thoughts that come on them are universal throughout the psychodelic world. My second option would be peyote (mescaline) but due to its rarity - this is why I put it in second. If it were a common psychodelic, I would advise mescaline first.

DMT is probably your last endeavor. It is the most intense, and can seriously put your mind on edge, especially for those who are unfamiliar with psychodelics. Do not pursue DMT until you are comfortable with your mind on other psychodelics.

 

[Sticki]

Hello Putdeksel and welcome to Psychonaut,

I think in most serious Psychonaut cases, The search for truth through a better understanding on ones being becomes the general idea. When one gets no answers outside, One must look inside.

The questions you ask are like the preflight nerves of a first time flyer

-How do I know I will come back and will I be me??? It is true that some people dont come back from thier trip but they probably had an extremely awful time at the hands of others or had a predisposition to mental illness. But, In most cases you will come back more you then when you first embarked on your journey.

-Where did we come from? Earth, Infact apparantly we are closely related to fungus.

-Why are we here? Very good question and it depends who you want to believe on the theory side but maybe you can find your own purpose?

-Where are we going? If you believe what we are being told on TV and by various sources, Extinction. You may discover your own path

-Is there such thing as a divine maker/source? That is down to you to discover

Your views on the world and religion will probably be alterd after your eyes are open to the possibilities of perception.
The experiences deliverd from each encounter with a psychedelic personally taught me more then I could possibly learn in a life time.

As already stated DMT maybe one step too quick unless its consumed orally with an MAOI like in Ayahuasca.
Interestingly tho, The chemical name for Psilocin is 4-ho-DMT and to me it kinda means its a weaker intensity, longer duration mellow version of DMT that doesnt require the MAOI. Orally administrated Psilocin often is accompanied by a lovely deep warmth and happyness Smoking DMT is often like sticking ones head out of a moving train, Fun but hard to pick up on things as they pass you by so fast and can often leave you feeling a bit bewildered.

P.S. Know Thyself

 

[putdeksel]

Thank you guys!

This has been a real eye opener for me. The thing is I am currently in medschool and in the course of psychology we discussed about terms like perception, personality, memory and motivation.

Perception is understood as sensory input + experiences. Now here it gets very interesting to me... we all have 5 senses; sight, hearing, taste, touch and smell. All of these are sensory input from the day we are born we accumilate experience with these senses and together it forms "perception". We know that sense can be deceitful for example:

We know elephants have 4 legs(experience) yet our sensory input says this one has more!

Now usually we can only realize/take in 3 (maybe more) senses at a time. Do hallucigenics stimulate all your senses at once? Or... does it enable/open a 6th sense? What are your thoughts about this in relation to hallucigenics?

I wouldn't start with DMT.

Take some shrooms, maybe 10-15 grams fresh of Ps. Cubensis and focus on the questions you are asking yourself.

Thanks for this advice. Do shrooms give visuals or does it give more?

Start with mushrooms. Easy to dose, easy to know you took the correct drug, and the emotions and thoughts that come on them are universal throughout the psychodelic world. My second option would be peyote (mescaline) but due to its rarity - this is why I put it in second. If it were a common psychodelic, I would advise mescaline first.

Funny thing about mescaline actually. After I watched this movie called "Blueberry" I was really getting interested in hallucigenics. Before that hallucigenics was all taboo for me. This movie was so to say my gateway in hallucigenics and peyote being my first interest at the time.
So mescaline was my first call aswell.. however later on I watched this movie "the spirit molecule" which gave me a profound/breathtaking interest for DMT. From that point on DMT has been my 1st choice.

Smoking DMT is often like sticking ones head out of a moving train, Fun but hard to pick up on things as they pass you by so fast and can often leave you feeling a bit bewildered.

Yes I agree but what about ayahuasca? Where I live (Netherlands) we have this church of some sort who gives workshops in the weekends. This 'workshop' meaning ingesting ayahuasca ofcourse
I heard this experience of DMT is far less bewildering.

Don't get me wrong or anything... I am scared as hell using hallucigenics.. however I don't want to have semi-experiences like say only visuals. If I'm doing it I want it to be worth it!

 

[Light]

Like I said, the classic psychedelics (Mushrooms, Ayahuasca, Peyote/San Pedro, LSD) to me are more worthwhile than DMT in its pure form. They have more transformational power too, I would say from my experience.

Ayahuasca can be VERY bewildering. Don't take it lightly.

I say take mushrooms, because in many ways it is the most gentle introduction in the psychedelic mindstate. Gradually up the dose once you start feeling comfortable there.

Don't do psychedelics when you are in a bad emotional state. It will amplify your mood greatly and although it can help you to get through it, in the beginning it is hard to find your way around it and any attempt to fight the things you are experiencing will make you 'go bad'. So better to be in a good mood for at least a couple of days before you start. Don't use any other psychoactives in the days before the experience either. Even unhealthy food can have a bad influence (although it is a matter of sensitivity).

You can always use DMT some other time. So far, it hasn't made my top 5 list in its pure form.

 

[McAllister]

I started out as a Christian, then when I became disillusioned with it I joined the Golden Dawn and also became a student of Eastern philosophies. This was all years before my first psychedelic trip.

By 2003 when I had my first psychedelic trip, I was an agnostic bordering on atheism. My first trip brought back my interest in religion and magick, and I resumed my gnostic studies studies with a vengeance. My interest in simple yoga, meditation, kaballah, thelema, sufism, wicca etc. anything that was related to gnostism, resurfaced and became a part of my life again.

Why trip? Well, you read a lot about the relationship of a man and his surroundings, but there's nothing like experiencing it first hand during a psychedelic trip and it really brings to light what others were talking about. After the trip I found myself subtly changed as a person than what I was before. I could admire the beauty of plants and architecture, in my hectic life before that I was so stressed I was missing out on just how beautiful the life in front of me was.

I doubt you're going to find out the answers to all your questions by tripping, but what you might get is a new lease of life, a new will to live. You might get into the mindset of saying to yourself, why waste time asking all these questions when I can just surrender to the positive vibes of the world and live.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Ayahuasca is the most intense [long duration] hallucinogen there is. I would also save this for later.
DMT is like ayahuasca, but the visuals and ideas that come on them can be overwhelming, and more often than not people who take it with little knowledge or experience find themselves believing that the DMT world is more real than this world. You can imagine how important this can be in choosing whether or not this is a good choice... When I have smoked a strong amount of DMT in the past, I seriously considered whether this reality was put on as a script for me. It is not something that you can take, get a profound experience, and move on in good faith - it has a very good probability of making your time after the trip uncomfortable - especially without any other hallucinogen experience.

Ayahuasca has the same possibility, but due to it being 6-8 hours and less intense, many thoughts arise and you often don't get stuck in one area of thought, which can happen on DMT. Ayahuasca is very therapeutic, but like all hallucinogens, and due to its extreme properties, it would be better left alone for now.

Seriously, go find some mescaline or some psilocybin. You will not be dissapointed if you take a normal dose. Many people go into hallucinogens thinking that you see colors and giggle at things, although that may be true, that is not why they have been used so extensively and for such a long period of time. They have the ability to change your worldly view and your most deepest opinions, biases, and ideologies. When you are sober your whole life, you have a grounding on your serotonin, you know how it behaves and you associate "reality" with the perceptions you see on serotonin. However, when your serotonin gets disrupted, and you start to perceive through a new pathway, yet still hold the same reasoning, you can imagine that there is going to be some dramatic effects on one's psychology.

Good luck to you. Do not take them lightly, but take them happily

 

[zezt]

Hi guys,

I'm following this forum for a few days now out of curiosity in hallucinogens and of course my personal philosophy of life. I would like some general info why one should trip in the first place.

First off, what is your philosophy in life, are you a Christian, Buddhist, Jew or anything like this. The reason why I ask is because I still got all these unsolved questions like:

-Where did we come from?
-Why are we here?
-Where are we going?
-Is there such thing as a divine maker/source?

Did your believes / faith change after the use of any drugs? Do any of you have the same thoughts like I do? LOL
Did any of the mind expanding drugs teach you anything or answered any of these 4 questions?
Like I said I'm fairly new to molecules like DMT, Psilocybin, LSA, LSD etc. I have tried weed more than a couple of times just to relax so to speak. So basically I have never used any hallucinogens.

I am particularly keen on DMT. I have read a lot about it. Even though I am totally unfamiliar with hallucinogens I think it would be a good start... what do you folks think?[/quote]

Is there such thing as a divine maker/source?

Hey putdeksel (hmmm why did you choose this name? I am curious.)
I come from a Goddess spiritual understanding of reality, so for that perspective I will answer your questions:

-Where did we come from?

See this wonderful amazing being, Earth, you are currently breathing with? Here. Here in interelationship with the whole universe.

Why are we here?

Do you ever dance? or sing? If I asked you when you were doing something you love doing what would you say?

Where are we going?

Goddess spirituality embraces cyclic reality--spirals. This means that nature has an intrinsic tendency to recycle itself in a sustainable way, so light and death imply each other as does life and death, and this is sacred. So going implies coming.

Did your believes / faith change after the use of any drugs? Do any of you have the same thoughts like I do? LOL

I don't like calling psychedelics 'drugs'. This is a derogoatory term the Christian Inquisitors used to to de-grade the sacramental herbs the common people held as sacred (Shamanism and the Drug Propaganda, Dan Russell)
I first was given LSD when I was 15, and it very MUCH did change my life lol my first trip had me seeing VERY deeply peoples body language (the people I was looking at at a party were not tripping), and how it seems to contradict the social personas they were presenting. I found this extremely funny and I nearly died giggling. Psychedelics resolved for me the hardening that culture had done to the little boy who was loving nature, and its magical nature. School, grownups, peers, mass media had steered me to only respecting the big city, and disrespecting the natrual world. I threw litter at it which reveals disrespect, and I was growing a sadistic streak---Sacred Medicine brought me back to seeing and feeling nature in its sacred primal being

Is there such thing as a divine maker/source?

Well, I dont go with the patriarchal concept of a divine maker/source who is apart from 'his creation'. Rather the Goddess is creation, the Earth is Her body. This is what I very much have deeper insight into when esctatic on psychedelics. All is alive. If you feel this and your educators, or friends, tell you you just had a 'chemical ride', or try to downgrade any spiritual experience you may have--just ask them if science knows what either consciousness or matter is. They may try and say it does but it really doesn't.

I am particularly keen on DMT. I have read a lot about it. Even though I am totally unfamiliar with hallucinogens I think it would be a good start... what do you folks think?

Is there such thing as a divine maker/source?

I have never had it. I have had LSD and magic mushrooms--the Liberty Caps. I read in your other post that you live In Holland and there is a place that has Ayahuasca? You are luck. May places in this ignorant world do not allow that. That could be good for you because you would be with others and would have support.

But whether you do it like that or by yourself, just be sure that you DEEPLY respect the sacrament, the set and setting, and the intent of what you wish to explore. With love everything is possible

 

[putdeksel]

@McAllister
Thanks for your presented experience and your personal life changes.

surrender to the positive vibes

I understand what you are saying: ‘there is no understanding only intuitive feeling’. This reasoning is (for me) unacceptable. This implies that we are rats in maze without the knowledge to find the exit. This may seem a bit abstract even a little bit arrogant however this is how I ‘feel’ about it.

@IJesusChrist
Thank you so much! I never considered the fact that serotonin could be such a huge impact ones psyche. Who knows perhaps hallucinogenics could be considered a treatment for mental break downs or midlife crises.

@McAllister

Hey putdeksel (hmmm why did you choose this name? I am curious.)

Lol, interesting question though it has nothing to do with this subject =)
Anyway, It’s Dutch for manhole cover. Satisfied?
BTW I’m not trolling if that’s what you are implying xD

Your explanation to my questions intrigued me profoundly. Especially the one at the party and how you could see clearly the ‘appearances’ how society molded them and how biologically wired we all are. It is funny to see that our main purpose is to propagate and therefore slow down (like sticki said) our extinction.

Also thanks all for the advice on DMT, I will start off with either mescaline or psilocybine.

 

[McAllister]

@McAllister
Thanks for your presented experience and your personal life changes.

surrender to the positive vibes

I understand what you are saying: ‘there is no understanding only intuitive feeling’. This reasoning is (for me) unacceptable. This implies that we are rats in maze without the knowledge to find the exit. This may seem a bit abstract even a little bit arrogant however this is how I ‘feel’ about it.

@McAllister

[quote:3d2bbbez]Hey putdeksel (hmmm why did you choose this name? I am curious.)

Lol, interesting question though it has nothing to do with this subject =)
Anyway, It’s Dutch for manhole cover. Satisfied?
BTW I’m not trolling if that’s what you are implying xD

[/quote:3d2bbbez]

A slight misrepresentation of the point I was trying to make. What I'm saying is that during the psychedelic trip you should just give in to the experience and not try to fight it. You may not have any notion that you're getting any answers to your burning questions about the divine source etc, but enjoy the energy and the feeling while you've got it. I didn't make any suggestion as to what you should do after the trip.

My first experience was with psilocybin by the way. Although at the time I didn't even have the notion I was going through a religious experience, it was only after I came down that I self-analysed it and decided I had one. It inspired me to revive all my gnostic practices of old and work hard at transcendal meditation, kundalini yoga etc to discover more about my true self. I understand where you're at with the lab rats and maze analogy, which relates to the eastern dharmic wheel of life theory, but you don't have to accept that theory. The after effect of a psychedelic trip should be to free your mind to inspire you to take any path you want to go down, not to imprison the mind into a single way of thinking/game playing. Where intuition kicks in, in my humble opinion, is to make you intuitively know not to go down a path that's going to cause anybody any harm.

BTW It wasn't me who asked about your name, it was Zest, lol. Thanks for the info anyway ;-)

 

[putdeksel]

@Zest
Your website is absolutely amazing! I watched the movie called: “The God Within”. This narrator is dead-on on every aspect of modern-science! Simply amazing, this small documentary has really opened my eyes, actually your whole website does.

@McAllister
Yes you are right I did misinterpret your point, thanks for pointing me in the right direction

After watching “the god within” I begin to understand the mind-body-spirit relation and why modern-science fails on so many levels. With frontier man Steven hawking who rules out any mind-spirit involvement in the body. And who regards ethics and philosophy to be unimportant. It seems we lack creativity and brilliant minds like Einstein, Newton etc.

 

[Abstrakt]

Hey there! I'm just getting started in psychedlics too, so I thought I'd offer another beginner's perspective.

All those questions you asked are phenomenal, but in my limited experience, aren't quite what I've been exposed to in my trips. My insights were all either more personal, or more vague. For instance, on one trip, I took a combination of mushrooms and 2c-i. I didn't learn any one thing in particular - rather, I was exposed to a different way of interpreting reality, or rather, a new way of reality presenting itself to me. Another time, while on 2c-e with my closest friends, we all decided that we needed to be more careful of what we do to our bodies, and decided never to take pressed MDMA pills again because of their propensity for being cut with other dangerous substances, and we all feel much better now because we followed through on that decision. Point being, you can definitely think on certain questions that you intend to focus on, but never be afraid to just let the answers come to you. Because they will.

NEVER, EVER take psychedelic substances when you're scared, or in a bad mindset in any way. Rule #1 of tripping is simple - set and setting, or your mindset going in and the setting in which you take it. Make sure you're in a comfortable place (for me, I need to be outside and in nature), and in a comfortable headspace (nothing bothering you daily, no great problems looming over you, etc). Trust me, you'll be much better off this way.

I disagree with the idea to start with mushrooms personally. I started with LSD, and I think a low dose of that is better to start with than mushrooms. As I've heard it described: "mushrooms are the drug of questions, LSD is the drug of answers." I find mushrooms too confusing to make sense of until you are more experienced. LSD, at low doses, is easy to handle and really captures the psychedelic mindset.

Hope this helps! Be safe, set and setting, and have an open mind.

 

[zezt]

@Zest
Your website is absolutely amazing! I watched the movie called: “The God Within”. This narrator is dead-on on every aspect of modern-science! Simply amazing, this small documentary has really opened my eyes, actually your whole website does.

THANKS so much, that is really encouraging! Yes that is a great video, and really exposes mechanistic thinking and science.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Psychodelics can show you things that make the most sense in the world, they can make the universe fit in the palm of your hand, or as grand as your wildest imaginations, or both simultaneously.

The worst trip I ever had was when I knew everything. The universe, literally, could be understood simply - all of it.

The best trip I ever had showed me I don't know a god damn thing. Ironically, they continuously pop up, one then the other, proposing the questions, and realizations, about duality within the universe.

Result you should get of this post: The mind is a powerful thing, it controls your perception of reality, which is your reality. When the wires are free to flow in any direction they choose, even counter intuitively, you are bound to naturally follow as a perceiving being.

Psychodelics will amaze you.

I had a 'day' dream last night of a trip, I guess you could call it a flash back. I was in my bed, and suddenly my head became miles long, and it was being pulled in a certain direction, it became heavy, as if gravity was funneled into a cylinder towards my side. It wasn't pleasant, but not very unpleasant, either, but it brought back the possibilities of changes in perception. The weather has flipped a switch in me and I'm finding myself very odd at the moment.

 

[Guhyayoga]

Hi.

I have to disagree with the advice you've been given to do DMT last. In my view DMT, though extremely powerful, is also one of the more uh... wholesome and 'safe' hallucinogens to use. I highly suggest staying away from synthetics and semi-synthetics like LSD, 2C-*, DO*, etc.

DMT is even 'closer to home' than cannabis. Although we have endocannabinoids, they are not the phytocannabinoids, but structurally analogous chemicals. DMT, however, is produced endogenously in the pineal gland which is often correlated with the third eye. It'd made out of the same building block serotonin is - tryptamine, which is dimethylated by enzymes in the pineal gland to form DMT. At least, there's a good body of evidence that suggests that this is the case. Endogenous DMT is correlated to near death experiences, dreams, transcendental experiences, etc.

This, to me, suggests that DMT is a lot safer for your longterm psychological and neurological health than other hallucinogens. Put another way, the indigenous people who do ayahuasca aren't working their way up to it by doing LSD and such first.

Actually, my recommendation, for whatever it's worth, is as follows:

*Stick with cannabis, opt out of hallucinogens unless you are sure you are unable to break into psychonautic mindstates without them. Pursue other methods first - ie meditation, and a competent guru if such is available.

*If this doesn't work for you after awhile - which is understandable, don't feel bad if it doesn't, then settle on using hallucinogens for a kickstart. In this case, I recommend doing mushrooms first, followed by DMT, and then maybe some experiments with salvia. Mescaline, in my opinion, is superfluous, and the synthetics seem to me to be prone to damaging people's development. Opinions.

Hope this post was helpful in some way.

 

[Light]

Endogenous DMT is correlated to near death experiences, dreams, transcendental experiences, etc.

There is no evidence of this. It is a hypothesis.

Also: smoking DMT isn't the same as an endogenous DMT release. There's probably other neurotransmitters that get released at the same time and different amounts. Smoking it is a high peak and fast return to baseline, which can be very bewildering.

Ayahuasca is a different story.

I took mushrooms first, then ayahuasca. I don't think it is necessarily the best way, but it wasn't bad.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I guess it really doesn't matter. If you go on a bad route in DMT the same result probably would have come about from psilocybin, no? Under the same circumstances?

So maybe it isn't true to say take DMT after experience, however DMT will rock your world a little harder and a little faster than anything else out there.

 

[Guhyayoga]

There is no evidence of this. It is a hypothesis.

Please read chapter 15 of Rick Strassman's The Spirit Molecule if you would like to understand some of the evidence behind this hypothesis. The primary objection is actually that NDEs have been reported in patients without much apparent brain activity.

Also: smoking DMT isn't the same as an endogenous DMT release. There's probably other neurotransmitters that get released at the same time and different amounts.

This is also a hypothesis. You see?

You're probably right, at least in part, much as Dr. Strassman is also probably right.

On this topic, it's interesting to note that endocannabinoids have been linked to the control of DMT production as well as other ligands, and also governing the action of receptor sites.

Anyway, DMT's a substance your body works with on a regular basis. LSD and such are not, regardless of whether the configuration of brain chemicals during an endogenous release of DMT is different than that of smoking or drinking w/ MAOI, which it almost certainly is. This is actually why I recommend avoiding hallucinogens and changing one's own brain chemistry through other processes first.

 

[Guhyayoga]

I guess it really doesn't matter. If you go on a bad route in DMT the same result probably would have come about from psilocybin, no? Under the same circumstances?

So maybe it isn't true to say take DMT after experience, however DMT will rock your world a little harder and a little faster than anything else out there.

While it's within the realm of possibility for a strong psilocybe trip and a light DMT trip to go in similar directions, generally this will not be the case. Similar molecules, yes, dissimilar effects, in terms of both bad and good tips.

Like Light pointed out, with smoked DMT, the effect is 5-20 minutes or so, sometimes a little longer. A lot of people will drop the pipe after hitting it due to how sudden and overwhelming the onrush is. The speed alone gives it a very different character. Most people feel like they're in a wholly different reality/dimension, often going down tunnels of energy or mind, sometimes many tunnels simultaneously, with 'windows' in them that act as vistas onto ... well, all kinds of experiences - which can also occur simultaneously. I've not had my sense of time and place boggled in the same way on mushrooms.

One can use mushrooms to biotransform tryptamines though, likely including DMT. Shulgin posted awhile back about about Jochen Gartz' research:

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin ... nn_07.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8329963/Joche ... -Psilocybe