Extension(s) of the Mind, and (much) more...

[Mescaline]

What are your thoughts on things like a GPS system, the whole iPhone generation of mobile phones, a calculator, maybe even a clock, and of course computers being or becoming part of the Mind, being extensions of the Mind, enhancing the Mind?
This might sound pretty counter-intuitive. It sure did to me when I first heard it. But why, really, would this not be the case?

Aren't we becoming more and more like the characters depicted in the movie(s) "Ghost in a Shell". Would you consider all their fancy technologies implanted in their brains and such as part of their Mind? Or is it the Mind 'governing' all those mechanical parts, like operating a machine, thus not being the Mind itself? But then again, if the Mind is a product of the brain (although this could be disputed), and you implant or enhance that brain by means of some machinery, whether it be physically connected to it or not, being outside or inside the skull, how then can it be the governing component? How can the product of something be the thing holding all the strings of its "creator"?

And, connected to this, what do you think about things like Deep-Brain stimulation (DBS; click here if you don't know what DBS is). Implanting some kind of nanotechnology in the brain of a depressed person, and voilà, within a few minutes the person is feelig great. He just jumps up and exclaims "I finally feel like myself!". For years the person was stuck in his own mental world, not able to 'escape' the 'tortures' of his own mind. Then someone implants something completely non-human, absolutely 100% mechanical, in his brain, and he finally feels like himself. He starts doing stuff he has always wanted to do but failed to bring up the effort to do so. Stuff he says really are what 'define' his being, his personality, which always seemed to be out of reach. He starts doing all kinds of crazy stuff, not per se healthy, but still, they are what he claims to be aspects of his personality.
On the other hand, a person, hardly capable of moving at all for most of his life, one day, after a similar technological "adjustment" of his brain suddenly regains the ability to move around, and do stuff. What is the first thing he does after being able to move again? He moves over to the balcony and jumps down - Dead.
So, both stories of these two people are actually true, I didn't just make them up (the details of the second one being a bit more hazy, but the general idea being the same). In the first story it seems quite straightforward to think the DBS helped to 'complete' the man's personality, his Mind one could say, making it an enhancement of his Mind. But in the second story, this conclusion is a bit harder to make.. Especially as we cannot ask the guy what on earth he was thinking deciding to end his life right then and there. Was it really what he wanted? Was his life-time wish to jump down a balcony, to die? Was it an extension of his mind, his personality, of who he was? Was he "supposed to be" suicidal? Or did he become mentally disordered due to some kind of malfunctioning or side-effect of the implant? Also, the second story involves some ethical issues: Is it ethical to "help" someone, who in turn ends his or her life?

Another thought that is connected to this is the current development in Artificial Intelligence. The functioning of the human brain is being mapped more and more effectively, more accurate, at an alarming pace mind you. So in a sense a human brain is starting to look like a computer more and more, as we gain more understanding of its functioning. On the other hand, advancements in AI are giving computers and robots an ever more increasing amount of human "properties". For example, it seems there is an AI that can evaluate and grade papers just as well, if not better, in comaprison to a human professor or teacher, even providing full feedback, all of which within a few minutes, if not seconds. Of course this AI still lacks a lot of human properties, like emotions or genuine creativity. Regardless, the two, humans and AI, are starting to look more alike at a very fast pace. It is not that crazy to think, I believe, that they will become one and the same at some distant (or maybe not even that distant) time in the future.
Yet antoher thing worth mentioning in this context is the line of thought that maybe, just maybe, the first Man, or maybe even the ancient Greeks, to make it more controvesial, did not possess a Mind, that he/they was/were not conscious. That they just "did" and "lived", but never really knew, never really were aware, never were conscious of what they were actually doing. Something called a "Zombie" in psychology. Some people even go as far to claim that the modern day human is nothing more than a Zombie. I find this hard to believe, but just to illustrate how crazy things can get. Anyway, the point of this short endeavour into humanity's mental history being that if those ancient Greeks or cavemen didn't have a Mind or consciousness, what makes them so different from some kind of extremely advanced AI?
So, will these super-AIs in the future be able to think? Will they develop something similar to a Mind? Or can computers already think? Do they already have something like a "Mind at infancy"? Or is it absolutely beyond all reasonable thought to even go there, thinking computers could have a Mind - "Ludicrous! You must be going insane!".

So.. Is some of our technology an extension of our Mind? Are we turning into robots, or are computers turning into human-like beings? Or are humans and robots actually the same in some sense? Robots just being a "species" in its very early stages of some kind of human engineered evolution (Oh! I just got a crazy thought.. Those entities that some people report seeing and communicating with during psychedelic experiences.. Maybe they are to us what we humans are to robots?? That would actually, somehow, intuitively, make a lot of sense to me, although I'd have to think about this a lot more..).

Everything (ok, almost everything) boiled down to one question: Are we (becoming) Cyborgs?

 

[IJesusChrist]

I didn't read everything - but I want to make an important point about your first example;

The depressed person who suddenly comes to be.

The important part is - he knew what he wanted to be. He knew that finally his 'mind' was his. I can feel for this, for taking some stimulants this is exactly the same consequence I get.

But the point to note is - he already knew what he wanted to be. The physical brain blocked his spiritual mind.

 

[Mescaline]

Yes, I agree completely, haha, as that is exactly what I was trying to illustrate with the example.

The physical brain blocked his spiritual mind.

That is what I meant by:

Stuff he says really are what 'define' his being, his personality, which always seemed to be out of reach.

I'm not denying that he didn't know who he was, just that he wasn't that person. So if I understand you correctly, you acknowledge that the brain implant helped the man to be who he really is. Just as stimulants help you to be who you really are.

I myself have been in a state similar to that man's for many years, and just recently crawled out of it, I believe. I just didn't get an implant. It happened "naturally". But this begs to ask another question (which is more connected with subjects I brought up later in the post, namely if we are (becoming) cyborgs): For me, not having had an implant, and for all other people who have recovered from depression, anxiety, chronic fatigue syndrome, any mental disorder really, without the help of any outside agents or devices (disregarding chemicals for the moment, although they would also count as relevant in adjusting the brain; they are just a bit more complicated) - Something probably changed in the brain, new pathways have been formed, some probably have been destroyed, it doesn't really matter for what I want to illustrate, except for the brain having changed. The brain, then, one could argue, is just another piece of machinery. A thing made out of countless DBSs, countless brain implants, all working together to be the brain, except that they are biological devices. So, then I ask myself, aren't we cyborgs already? Of course this is messing with the term "cyborg" and its definition, but I assume you get the point.

(By the way, I will answer to your reply in your thread "equations of the universe" later. I don't have time for it now, but I do have some possible solutions to your paradox, I believe.)

 

[BrainEater]

if you ask me, the evolution of technology and especially computers can be seen analogically/symbollically to/for the evolution of the brain.
think about it... a lot of people are controlled by their mind instead of them controlling it... or you could also call it ego if thats better for you. also, then you could see the behaviour of people or their thoughts/emotions basically as programs.
think about why and how people nowadays are reduced to their (supposed) function and shit like that.
everyone has their own logical tool (brain), but then again even logic is somewhat a matter of perspective. what for one may be logical, for the other may be not? of course it could be though, that there are different types of logic, like for example universal logic, subjective logic, objective logic, etc etc you name it...
besides that, people are zombies indeed. some people don't even want to think on their own nor do they seem able to. people are becoming slaves of industry, politics, themselves etc etc ... they are like "consuming machines". often also thinking machines in the sense that they can't stop their thought process and therefore are very compulsive persons in some way or another. hypnosis is a big issue, too and for example marketing industry abuses that a lot. it's pure manipulation... but yeah they must think nothing counts more than selling their product.. not even the supposedly free will of the "target group"... lol.. just observe how they want to manipulate you and then you will be able to make a decision whether you want that or not.
it's as if they ask you: "do you want to be slave?" and you can say yes or no... of course not as directly as that but in principle it seems to be the case. in addition to that, if that makes any sense to you, the most efficient slaves are probably those who think they are free, while they are not. it's a frightening scenario if you ask me... almost like in the matrix... the machines are taking over the power in a certain way...
the thing in the so called modern world... and the so called civilisation... is: capitalism.
because it is based on exploiting either the people or nature. and both of that most of the time doesn't seem to really be in the right balance... :?
btw one more thing regarding the human brain. well it's supposed to be a quantum computer, which means it uses light for the states of computation and it can have several states at once. which is really interesting in the context that we supposedly only are using like 10% of the potential of the brain or so.... it's like we build our own individual and collective prisons for the mind, which we can't touch, smell or see... something like that lol....
alright anyway.... i guess that's enough for now... thanks for reading...

peace!! 8)

 

[IJesusChrist]

Ahh yes - the biological machine.

I think we are very similar - you are on the same thinking as me. You think objectively and analytically - the downfall of western people , or so is the fad right now.

Technically, of course, we are not a cyborg, since the definition of cyborg is additional parts into the body. But, we are a machine, yes. We are a machine that is connected to the rest of the world. We are not an individual machine, seperated by skin and air from earth - we are one giant machine, one giant cyborg, one giant web of life. We are all interconnected...

But yes, I believe the mind is a physical entity that can be explained to some degree.

However attempting to break down the human body or even the brain into parts results in western medicine - you end up treating symptoms and not the source. When you, or anyone, begins to think of the body as a machine, we begin to think of "oh we can replace this - or replace that, or fix this or fix that" and that will end up fixing a problem. This ideology, in itself, is a problem, for your body is an entire network, and entire machine that is synergistic to its parts. It cannot be separated and put back together.

I think I am getting off topic from what you want to get to, but it is important to say this.

In short; the body is a machine, but it is not parts put together, it is an individual whole that is greater than the sum of it's parts, and so is the way of all life, and all the universe. Try not separate your body and individualize yourself, automate yourself, these will end up getting you in a hole.

 

[Mescaline]

Gaah, I was about to start answering your posts, but I'm a bit exhausted from answering the posts in the thread "equations of the universe".
I'll reply later.