MichaelVipperman
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New article, may contain traces of mysticism:
http://michaelvipperman.wordpress.com/2 ... se-belief/
http://michaelvipperman.wordpress.com/2 ... se-belief/
Do you ever have false epiphanies while high?
- Auteur de la discussion MichaelVipperman
- Date de début
Why would they be false?
An epiphany is an epiphany,
Whether you remember it or not is another matter.
By your blog entry, I think the question you are asking is "Do psychedelics make people delusionally psychotic?"
But then it seems like you are trying to emphasise the thinking outside of the box that is entailed with psychedelics.
So which is it?
Epiphany, Psychosis or Creativity with no concept of "The Rules" that are man made??
An epiphany is an epiphany,
Whether you remember it or not is another matter.
By your blog entry, I think the question you are asking is "Do psychedelics make people delusionally psychotic?"
But then it seems like you are trying to emphasise the thinking outside of the box that is entailed with psychedelics.
So which is it?
Epiphany, Psychosis or Creativity with no concept of "The Rules" that are man made??
IJesusChrist
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I tried to answer this question when I was 16, with laborious results.
I would often get extremely, extremely high. To the point of thinking my cat is a robot video taping me. (One example of an epiphany that was obviously false). But others weren't so far-fetched (or at least, harder to disprove, R.I.P. Sammy).
I had some where I would think about telekinesis and how I thought (when extremely high and tired) it was possible, and that I was doing it. Was I tapping into some kind of shamanistic realm, or was I having a delusion?
This went on for about 4 months, every night getting extremely high by myself, drawing, writing down answers to meanings of life, but most often, topics of neurology and psychology. When I was high, every single time, I had an epiphany about how the brain works, or how the universe is structured. I would write them down, and in the morning I Would read them. 2 results;
1. It was so hard to read and comprehend I couldn't make an accurate judgement.
2. It made sense, but there was no way to prove or disprove.
This is an obvious result, since my brain did come up with them, after all. These were the only two results until a few radical ones came about. I don't remember their exact nature, but I remember, while being high, saying, finally, "Aha! They are most often false!" While I was high this was a big blow to me, and I realized I should stop getting so stupidly high. I wrote the entire night's events somewhere, and examined it in the morning and concluded that an epiphany, no matter how "correct" it feels, is not necessarily true. And that many of my epiphanies while high could fall under the axe of logic.
It was at that point, as well, that I began to really look into what drugs are doing to the mind. Are we tapping into other realms of consciousness, or are we destined to approach them in that manner? Is our brain evolved in such a pattern as to default to these prophetic tendencies, these paradigm shifts while high? Even if they may actually have no bearing in reality other than we can't disprove or prove them either way?
And, thus, a long struggle of duality ensued. :shock:
Edit;
It is an interesting subject... As far as psychedelics with a greater 'kick' than thc, I have found my insights to be overwhelmingly true. They usually have to do with distinct people and their psychology, linguistics, and culture. But they aren't "true" or "false" epiphanies - which is why they are hard to remember, they are ways of viewing reality. The ability to view reality from a birdseye view everywhere you go after a mushroom trip is a strong epiphany for me, it isn't some kind of new truth I have conjured, it is simply a new perspective. Often the epiphanies I have on stronger psychedelics follow this trend. I become aware of things, I am able to gain new perspectives and think differently, contrasting my insights on marijuana.
I think that may be a large distinction between psilocybin and thc for example. On psilocybin i see patterns I haven't before, I gain the ability to empathize to a greater extent, and thereby learn new feelings from others. I do not, as often, feel like I've solved the workings of matter, or figured out why gravity exists, like I receive more commonly on THC.
I would often get extremely, extremely high. To the point of thinking my cat is a robot video taping me. (One example of an epiphany that was obviously false). But others weren't so far-fetched (or at least, harder to disprove, R.I.P. Sammy).
I had some where I would think about telekinesis and how I thought (when extremely high and tired) it was possible, and that I was doing it. Was I tapping into some kind of shamanistic realm, or was I having a delusion?
This went on for about 4 months, every night getting extremely high by myself, drawing, writing down answers to meanings of life, but most often, topics of neurology and psychology. When I was high, every single time, I had an epiphany about how the brain works, or how the universe is structured. I would write them down, and in the morning I Would read them. 2 results;
1. It was so hard to read and comprehend I couldn't make an accurate judgement.
2. It made sense, but there was no way to prove or disprove.
This is an obvious result, since my brain did come up with them, after all. These were the only two results until a few radical ones came about. I don't remember their exact nature, but I remember, while being high, saying, finally, "Aha! They are most often false!" While I was high this was a big blow to me, and I realized I should stop getting so stupidly high. I wrote the entire night's events somewhere, and examined it in the morning and concluded that an epiphany, no matter how "correct" it feels, is not necessarily true. And that many of my epiphanies while high could fall under the axe of logic.
It was at that point, as well, that I began to really look into what drugs are doing to the mind. Are we tapping into other realms of consciousness, or are we destined to approach them in that manner? Is our brain evolved in such a pattern as to default to these prophetic tendencies, these paradigm shifts while high? Even if they may actually have no bearing in reality other than we can't disprove or prove them either way?
And, thus, a long struggle of duality ensued. :shock:
Edit;
It is an interesting subject... As far as psychedelics with a greater 'kick' than thc, I have found my insights to be overwhelmingly true. They usually have to do with distinct people and their psychology, linguistics, and culture. But they aren't "true" or "false" epiphanies - which is why they are hard to remember, they are ways of viewing reality. The ability to view reality from a birdseye view everywhere you go after a mushroom trip is a strong epiphany for me, it isn't some kind of new truth I have conjured, it is simply a new perspective. Often the epiphanies I have on stronger psychedelics follow this trend. I become aware of things, I am able to gain new perspectives and think differently, contrasting my insights on marijuana.
I think that may be a large distinction between psilocybin and thc for example. On psilocybin i see patterns I haven't before, I gain the ability to empathize to a greater extent, and thereby learn new feelings from others. I do not, as often, feel like I've solved the workings of matter, or figured out why gravity exists, like I receive more commonly on THC.
MichaelVipperman
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All of the above!Sticki a dit:
@IJC
Great post!
IJesusChrist
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MichaelVipperman a dit:
I haven't fully had the time to read your entire response, I will when i have more time.
What is your take on the matter?
IJesusChrist a dit:
Hardly a false epiphany, Clearly a delusional thought as you lost touched with reality.
Psychedelics offer a path directly to the subconcious, That which is operating silently and most predominantly inside.
As far as psychotic delusional beliefs go, Its all down to how susceptible you are. If you are susceptible to bullshit, Then as your mind opens and your spirit gets a deeper insight into your mind and thoughts you may condition yourself by believing an irrational thought.
An analogy of this would be, Imagine the connection with what we know as reality is weak or diminished. Its like you get in a hot air balloon with no tether and cast yourself off into the unknown. Each thought is a blast of hot air, Taking you further into the unknown. You know what home looks like for a long time but cant remember how to get back or even how to control the balloon, then over time you forget how home looked and begin to change the image you have in your head so by the time you do float round back to home, You are so lost and confused you no longer recognise your home.
Control under the use of psychedelics is documented in MK-Ultra and also you really just have to look at the manson family. Ultimately tho, This boils down to one person manipulating a tripping individual that is highly open to suggestion or the leader of a group is psycotic and taking them down his wild path.
Finally, Creativity that knows no boundaries. Steve Jobs is the most recent success story of psychedelics, namely LSD but psychedelics are also responsible for many more advances like the discovery of the double helix and in the shaping of our world day by day.
To conclude, POS or Power Of Suggestion is a very strong power to the weak mind. Be it ones owns delusional thought or anothers suggestion, It can be translated in many ways when the doors of perception are open.
As for creativity, Is it not an expression?
How does one express the incomprehensible?
How does one comprehend the incomprehensible as anything other then outside of the box?
However, Not all insights are true insights and Not all expressions are pure. Not all information is pure and as you crawl further down the rabbit hole the stimuli can be over whelming it is up to the navigator to decipher truth from nonsense.
IJesusChrist
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So whats the difference in a false epiphany and a delusion?
I've sure had shifts that felt like epiphanies, and upon coming down, realized they were false. So wouldn't a delusion be a false epiphany?
You seem to be arguing that you can get false epiphanies or delusions from other people's suggestions, but then with your hot balloon metaphor, it simply happens because you get too far out.
And I for one, am extremely intolerant to bullshit - which should be apparent by now. Yet, while high, still susceptible to beliefs that can have no bearing on reality. Logic becomes skewed, you become wrapped up in possibilities and can't quite make clear conclusions or rational comparisons.
I've sure had shifts that felt like epiphanies, and upon coming down, realized they were false. So wouldn't a delusion be a false epiphany?
You seem to be arguing that you can get false epiphanies or delusions from other people's suggestions, but then with your hot balloon metaphor, it simply happens because you get too far out.
And I for one, am extremely intolerant to bullshit - which should be apparent by now. Yet, while high, still susceptible to beliefs that can have no bearing on reality. Logic becomes skewed, you become wrapped up in possibilities and can't quite make clear conclusions or rational comparisons.
"Do you ever have false epiphanies while high?"
the question appears logical at first glance, but one must dissect the statement within before answering it. "while high"? certainly not. i think that we all can agree that these epiphanies make perfect sense while high, or else we would not consider them epiphanies at all.
"do you ever have false epiphanies" what does that even mean, really? an epiphany is a revelation to (the experiencer) of an intuitive, natural, and easy mode of operation. can this be false? this begins to make me think that this entire theory surrounding the question was not thoroughly thought out beforehand.
just because one cannot experience (the ingested mode of experience) while sober, does not mean that whatever happened while in that heightened state was not. it's like somebody said earlier, it's a way of looking at something that is considered golden, not a sentence or a particular idea. the substance shows one a method, not any particular idea. and it is through a method (of experiencing) only, that any idea may come forth.
a way of looking at something cannot be "false" to my knowledge
the question appears logical at first glance, but one must dissect the statement within before answering it. "while high"? certainly not. i think that we all can agree that these epiphanies make perfect sense while high, or else we would not consider them epiphanies at all.
"do you ever have false epiphanies" what does that even mean, really? an epiphany is a revelation to (the experiencer) of an intuitive, natural, and easy mode of operation. can this be false? this begins to make me think that this entire theory surrounding the question was not thoroughly thought out beforehand.
just because one cannot experience (the ingested mode of experience) while sober, does not mean that whatever happened while in that heightened state was not. it's like somebody said earlier, it's a way of looking at something that is considered golden, not a sentence or a particular idea. the substance shows one a method, not any particular idea. and it is through a method (of experiencing) only, that any idea may come forth.
a way of looking at something cannot be "false" to my knowledge
IJesusChrist a dit:
examples please? i am more than willing to bet that it was a misconception, or at worst, a delusion. when one looks at the definition of epiphany, one realizes that it is not something that can really be considered as "true or false".
(the only difference between a misconception and a delusion is the resistance of one to reason or confrontation with fact [delusion]. delusion is a belief or opinion that is false, followed by a reluctance to acknowledge the factual evidence after forming the belief. many christians are delusional, not because of their faith, but about things like dinosaurs. if you were resistant to the truth, that is delusion, if you acknowledged that something was false, that was a misconception.)
the difference here is that an epiphany is not dependent on information, (it can be generated by simple or common everyday occurrences) whereas, without new false information, delusions would not exist.
There is no such thing as a "False" Epiphany.
You should start by understanding the basics of the terms you are throwing around, Its a good idea to start with Wiki:
Delusion - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
Epiphany - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling)
So again, An Epiphany is an Epiphany. A delusional thought, Is a delusional thought.
You are merely trying to blur the lines of definition to fit a model or theory. The term Texas Sharpshooter fallacy comes to mind.... :roll:
You should start by understanding the basics of the terms you are throwing around, Its a good idea to start with Wiki:
Delusion - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
Epiphany - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling)
So again, An Epiphany is an Epiphany. A delusional thought, Is a delusional thought.
You are merely trying to blur the lines of definition to fit a model or theory. The term Texas Sharpshooter fallacy comes to mind.... :roll:
IJesusChrist
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[youtube]le3oATdkJtM[/youtube]
A false epiphany.
There are a lot of people out there walking around with false epiphanies, I've read plenty of them on this board...
I think we all have different relations to epiphanies, apparently. Wouldn't you say that the above video is a false epiphany or are we going to digress into semantics?
A false epiphany.
There are a lot of people out there walking around with false epiphanies, I've read plenty of them on this board...
I think we all have different relations to epiphanies, apparently. Wouldn't you say that the above video is a false epiphany or are we going to digress into semantics?
MichaelVipperman
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Are these comments based on what I actually said in the article, or just on the title of this thread?Sticki a dit:
IJesusChrist
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I think this is just becoming a disagreement on semantics.
I believe an epiphany can be false.
You, and illusion, believe that an epiphany is more on the lines of something that is inherently indisputable - like my first response to this. A new perspective (literal perspective) on life cannot be true or false. [[sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, but this is how I'm processing what you're saying]]
I think a perspective is a subcategory of an epiphany... Epiphanies can also have physical phenomenon attributed to them; "Wow - If I think positively all the time, only positive things will happen to me"
Actually here is a perfect example of a friend of mine who had an epiphany on LSD that cannot possibly hold true in reality (or mayube it can :shock: ). He believes that as long as he "knows" that he is doing a righteous act, or that he strongly believes what he is doing is perfectly fine he will never get in trouble. He told me that as long as I believe that I am doing a righteous act (graffiti in this case) I will never get caught. I haven't gotten caught, and when I do paint, I strongly believe I am 'safe' however, logically, there is the possibility of me getting caught, prosecuted, etc. I hate to bring graffiti into this, I feel like I beat a dead horse with it, but it was a good example that relates.
I would probably have called my friends new found perspective an epiphany. So far, it hasn't been proven false, and may never be. Perhaps it is even true, I cannot say - but logically, we can assume that he has the same possibility of getting caught no matter what he is thinking if he is in the same place at the same time.
I believe an epiphany can be false.
You, and illusion, believe that an epiphany is more on the lines of something that is inherently indisputable - like my first response to this. A new perspective (literal perspective) on life cannot be true or false. [[sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, but this is how I'm processing what you're saying]]
I think a perspective is a subcategory of an epiphany... Epiphanies can also have physical phenomenon attributed to them; "Wow - If I think positively all the time, only positive things will happen to me"
Actually here is a perfect example of a friend of mine who had an epiphany on LSD that cannot possibly hold true in reality (or mayube it can :shock: ). He believes that as long as he "knows" that he is doing a righteous act, or that he strongly believes what he is doing is perfectly fine he will never get in trouble. He told me that as long as I believe that I am doing a righteous act (graffiti in this case) I will never get caught. I haven't gotten caught, and when I do paint, I strongly believe I am 'safe' however, logically, there is the possibility of me getting caught, prosecuted, etc. I hate to bring graffiti into this, I feel like I beat a dead horse with it, but it was a good example that relates.
I would probably have called my friends new found perspective an epiphany. So far, it hasn't been proven false, and may never be. Perhaps it is even true, I cannot say - but logically, we can assume that he has the same possibility of getting caught no matter what he is thinking if he is in the same place at the same time.
Your friend probably did have a break through, That being - If you feel like you are in the right, You wont look like your in the wrong. When you know you are doing wrong, Your giving off alot of signals. If you convince yourself you are doing right, You are projecting that on others too.
He probably had a break through in psychological thinking and underlying thought process that control his body language and facial expression and understood for a minute, If I feel guilty - I look guilty. Probably 50/50 observation of others and personal experience and observation. It does not mean he will never get caught becuase he thinks he is in the right, Its merely focusing on the positive to leave very little room for the negative.
I would not of said your friends epiphany was false but that he merely has a bit more to understand before it is a full epiphany. He must himself understand why he came to this conclusion, It is the point of the epiphany.
As I said already, I feel you are blurring the lines of definition.
He probably had a break through in psychological thinking and underlying thought process that control his body language and facial expression and understood for a minute, If I feel guilty - I look guilty. Probably 50/50 observation of others and personal experience and observation. It does not mean he will never get caught becuase he thinks he is in the right, Its merely focusing on the positive to leave very little room for the negative.
I would not of said your friends epiphany was false but that he merely has a bit more to understand before it is a full epiphany. He must himself understand why he came to this conclusion, It is the point of the epiphany.
As I said already, I feel you are blurring the lines of definition.
ijc a dit:
no, it isn't. it is an idea/belief. ideas/beliefs come from the mindstate that is revealed and brought forth by the epiphany. "we only die because we accept it as an inevitability" is a belief or an idea, not a mindstate, which is what epiphanies bring.
what you are thinking of i'm sure is/was either a misconception or a delusion (both are beliefs).
michael a dit:
all of my comments are based on my thoughts after reading your article. i do not post in threads unless i've read/viewed all of the information contained, or expressed that i have not done so in my comment, for future reference.
it isn't because their is a heirarchical framework here. epiphany> is the advent of mindstate/perspective>which produces beliefs/thoughts/ideas. so when you say "I think a perspective is a subcategory of an epiphany." you are getting at it. a perspective is what results from an epiphany. epiphany>(perspective/mindstate)ijc a dit:
ok, i see now that you've listed an example. it is correct to say "a friend of mine who had an epiphany while on lsd" but "that cannot possibly hold true" is to imply that it is an idea/belief, not an epiphany, which is incorrect usage of the term. those are beliefs, as you expressed, not "epiphanies" as distinguished in my first post and sticki's after that.
in other words, an epiphany is :shock: , anything else after the epiphany is a belief or an idea. an epiphany is indescribable, other than with emotion.
IJesusChrist
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Sticki - completely agree.
But doesn't an epiphany feeling necessarily imply that some sort of idea is to come? In other words, will an epiphany not always be followed by an idea, or a perspective? I understand what you're saying - the feeling of an epiphany. It is the "EUREKA" or at the very least, "Whooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
Now we are just yes, breaking into the semantics of this.
So, would you both have been better if the title had been "Have you ever had a false idea stem from an epiphany while high?"
Allusion a dit:
But doesn't an epiphany feeling necessarily imply that some sort of idea is to come? In other words, will an epiphany not always be followed by an idea, or a perspective? I understand what you're saying - the feeling of an epiphany. It is the "EUREKA" or at the very least, "Whooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
Now we are just yes, breaking into the semantics of this.
So, would you both have been better if the title had been "Have you ever had a false idea stem from an epiphany while high?"
BrainEater
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i suppose it boils down to that it's (all?) a matter of perrspective... which can be good or bad... which again would be a matter of perspective...
i guess the thing that you are debating about is, whether you know it or not is whether, when, how etc etc perspective equals perception or vice versa.
and i can answer that question to you... they are both concepts and symbols, like probably most words are. so how you look at those words is a matter of perspective and these words co-define your reality or rather perception and/or perspective of/on reality. and towards what meaning or actual things these words point, depends on the conditioning(programs) of your mind.
this can be good or bad because it depends on whether you view this as good or bad.
hahahahahha like quantum mechanics... it's so crazy lol
peace
i guess the thing that you are debating about is, whether you know it or not is whether, when, how etc etc perspective equals perception or vice versa.
and i can answer that question to you... they are both concepts and symbols, like probably most words are. so how you look at those words is a matter of perspective and these words co-define your reality or rather perception and/or perspective of/on reality. and towards what meaning or actual things these words point, depends on the conditioning(programs) of your mind.
this can be good or bad because it depends on whether you view this as good or bad.
hahahahahha like quantum mechanics... it's so crazy lol
peace
