2 phenotypes chronic problem

[im1badpup]

i bought a pack of chronic from source, there was two distinct phenotypes, ill call them healthy and sick for reasons which will reveal themselves in my post.

healthy pheno is indica dominant, it seems, darker plant, compact, tolerates a wide ph and eec swing. finishes in 63-70 days

sick pheno is pale leaves, yellowing from the bottom upwards ( N defiency ), its growth rate is excellant however, and yields @20% more than healthy pheno, in only 55-60 days.

im on my third set of clones, and have failed, yet again to address the N defiency, i have tried deep water culture, and canna pro+ , i increased drainage 3rd time and drip fed, still the same problem.
i have adjusted nutes, additives, added mg etc on sick phenos (im working with more than one plant) with no difference.
i added more light, used reverse osmosis water, varied the ph everything i have tried makes no difference.
i can only at the minute come to the conclusion sick pheno is growing so fast it cannot take up enough N to sustain itself properley, via its root system, (which in 30l pots and when checked expansive and healthy root system) and it makes me think this plant is capable of far more than i am currently getting.

has anyone any experience of growing the chronic, encountered the same problem?
i have no experience of foliar feeding, and i couldnt think of anything else except to try this next time round.. any suggestions of an effective foliar feed? .. i was considering nitrozyme?

 

[Mr.Smith]

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[im1badpup]

( on the previos already flowered clones that was the pale sick plants) yes i checked the roots of the pale plants and they was expansive and healthy, i cut the stem in half and checked that also, and there was no visible viral problem either ( theres a kind of brown stain you can see from viral infections in a crosscutting of the stem)
i vary my watering also between plants, some are twice daily some are once every two days, some plants ive had the ph as high as 6.5 some, (specially when in dwc i went as low as 5.2)
theres no signs/symptoms of overfeeding, toxic salt build up, root rot or moulds, or pests.
my feeds are, grow, micro, bloom, additives, sensizym, humic, fulvic, carboload, superthrive, (voodoo juice in veg). bud blood, big bud, overdrive at various stages flowering all advanced nutrients of canada.
i measure the nutrient uptake accurately by eec of the runoff, the guide i follow is a good one,( and proven ) for balancing out the npk ratios and giving good results.
dont getme wrong i yield .7 to .9 gram per watt which is certainly ok for someone growing large plants as it is, i really feel this pheno could do a lot better though and smash me through the 1 gram per watt barrier, without using a "sea of green" method.
there was no hermaphrodism with none of the plants.

 

[Mr.Smith]

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[GOD]

GOD scratches his head .

Its a genetic problem because of someone breeding hybrids with hybrids and then breeding sucessive generations with eachother without any real knowledge of breeding , or its because of someone useing things like "grow, micro, bloom, additives, sensizym, humic, fulvic, carboload, superthrive, (voodoo juice in veg). bud blood, big bud, overdrive at various stages flowering all advanced nutrients of canada." to much in the generations before . In the same way that vitamins and minerals are good for a person so taking mega doses of all together must be good !!!!!!

The facts are undenyable - someone has been doing something wrong or it wouldnt happen . = change the method .


With all that crap on them its no wonder that your having problems . You could try growing some of your plants without all that very expensive un nesecery stuff and some with it .

I have seen the problem in out door grass and it came from over fertilising progressive generations .

What does the grass cost you per gram to grow ?

 

[GOD]

A clarification of what i`m saying . Please think about it .

Asperins , anti rheumatism medicins , single vitamins , single minerals , antibiotics and anti viral medicins are good if you have the problem they solve but just throwing double or trebble doses of those things into your stomach justin case doesnt help . It causes problems .

The things you are talking about dont have an ingredients list on them do they ? , they only have adverts on them that tell you how "good" they are and that you "need" them . So whats in them and where does the idea to use the ingredients come from ?

The flowering boosters are usualy made with a herb that encourages flowering . The root bosters usualy contain a herb that helps plants to root . The anti contaminent products are usualy made from a herb , backing powder , green soap and milk acid . = things capitalist hippys have bought from the local garden center and mixed together themselves .

The people in the third world grow the best grass for thousands of years without all that expensive hippy shit .

Chronic was / is the name of a well bred sort oif grass . Many people call their grass chronic and it isnt that sort of grass at all . Its adverts . Its like most of the stuff thats sold as haze nowadays , realy its not pure haze its hybrids as the haze family is unstable wich means from a hundred pure haze plants only a few are realy good ,

Chronic is also the name that many americans call grass .

Giveing plants to much "goodness" makes them lazy and then they end up being as sick as junkys . White , anemic and weak , with no strength . Plants need natural shifts in their environment and positive stress so that they stay strong . The perfect example is the dutch tomato and letuice farmers that ended up breading tomatoes and letuice that tasted like cardboard . The same people are also , to a large part , responsibile for the degeneration of the once strong sorts that came to Holland from the US . They bred small fat plants that look healthy and stink perversly but dont get you high anymore they just make people lazy and sedated .

 

[im1badpup]

i got the seeds direct from the "original" breeder of chronic, to avoid cheapo ripoff seeds, or somebody down the line fucking with them.
i know the nutes sound excessive, i do only feed according to the uptake of the plant though, ive never gone above 1.7 ec or 1050ppm,( most growers go to 2.1..ive noticed the plants throw a concentration of that back out about 7-10 days after giving them it that high) measuring the runoff compared to the strength of the solution i put in gives me a good indication if the overall amount of nute im adding is too much.
unfortunately even armed with an ec meter it still doesnt tell me " hey put more N in" or "back off on the K" its back to relying on the eye for that.

i paid about £320 for the feed in all, ill be 3/4 of the way through it, eleccy etc triple that. itll probably work out about 70p per gram lol.
i dont grow for profit though, i grow for a nice tasting shitfacing smoke. ido try take into consideration, stoning taste and yield, as to how well i am/arent doing.

ive tried a lot of variation in my method, i guess if it purely down to genetics, nothing i try will change it.

i was thinking awhile what you said about seeing it in an outdoor grow, it did give me another thought,on the farm, we had to rotate crops, ie barley, wheat, rape because irrelevant of what ferts was applied, the yields would diminish and plants lack a "lustre of colour" my 30l pots may be too small and soil is been exhausted. if the outdoor crops u mentioned was planted in the same positions time and again...

ill have one more go with em, 50l pots 100% organic, no feeds
if i can work out a foliar to use on one ill try that too, any suggestions on that would be helpful, cheers

 

[dennis1978]

I think god is correct,

it can easily be a genetics problem.
I got triploids sometimes but also very healthy plants from the same batch.

Now i never used the triploid for breeding, but i still get some freaks
of nature in my growroom from seeds which came from
a healthy male and a healthy female.
Whether they are just ugly and looking mongloide,
grow weird,will become herma, somethere there is just one of these.

But it has nothing todo with my room or growing skills. I am sure of that.
I can only say it is with "THOSE" seeds.
There is just some error in their genetic code which can show but
probably won't always show...

Otherwise, get back to basics!
Maybe you should try getting a (premixed) soil to try a few
plants on? (growing on soil is easy!)

And then only give them "bio roots" from BioNova when starting
from cuttings. Seeds need no nutrients untill they are BIG.
On soild that is.

bioRoots 2.0 from bioNova:
5ml per liter for foliage feeding.
10 ml for water / nuterients mixture.

This is completely biological stuff, and there is no need
to acidify the water further with this when growing on soil.

Maybe a little canna terra vega for growing after 1 month. (like 25%)
For blooming canna terra flores (50% - 75% at max when blooming)

When you feed try to keep the ph up, escpecially on soil.
6 point 5 is perfect.

Just do not feed too much on soil, acid in nutrients will break down the calcium, the soil will acidify and your plants will slowly shutdown
their intake from the roots and die.

 

[GOD]

You should stop using the expensive and useless hippy shit and get ordinary grow and flower fertiliser from woolworths . Plus some herb extracts from your local garden center . Forget the EC and PH . Its already balanced . A greenhouse would do you good and so would trying to grow outdoors . But the main thing you could / should do is breed the best with the best to get the best .


" but i still get some freaks of nature in my growroom from seeds which came from a healthy male and a healthy female. "

Its a sign that the line you are using isnt clean . Its hybrids bred with hybrids . If your carefull you will stableise it with good breading but that will take probably 7 - 10 generations .

"This is completely biological stuff, "

Exactly . Thats what i said before . So go to your local garden center and buy the original herb extract its much cheaper .

If you look at the pictures here of the outdoor plants i used to grow years ago you will see what healthy plants that havent been fucked by all that hippy shit can look like . My plants only got woolworths fertiliser and herb extracts .

Please let us know the final price per gramm after harvesting and drying . And also the time it takes you to clean the buds off the plants .

EDITED . I have edited this post because i made a realy stupid maths mistake .

 

[im1badpup]

heres a coupla pics of the pale plants 35 days into flower, the purple thing in the tub is a lighter, trying to give an idea of size. the overview you can see the difference between the usual more healthy green foliage compared to the paler ones.
could it be possibly the growroom temperature is ok, but the latent heat temp of the foliage is too high?
if i knew indica dominated phenos was more tolerant of this than sativa swayed ones .. i cannot find any information to verify this though.

god, i see your point about cheaper nutes - i had a look around and can find the exact same types of nutes in most cases, at about 1/2 to 10th of the price lol.

oh i gassed the leaf, i got about 2g (if that) from 200g of waste leaf, come out looking a bit paler than vegetable oil, was thicker in consistancy though, golden syrup is what sprang to mind.

now say, you had a load of waste leaf, or just didnt want to pump 20 cans of gas through an extraction, would a worthwhile idea be dump the dried leaf into a solvent, ethanol/acetone/dcm? leave to soak after a good shaking, couple days later pour the solvent off, repeat another 1-2 times, then evaporate/distill the solvent off, wed be left with, the oils and all the other shit, but then dissolve this in just one or maybe two cans of gas and filter, evap the gas and be left with just the cannaboids?

 

[GOD]

It looks like you have a hand for growing .

Heres a few observations , please dont get discouraged .

The plants are mostly indica and a little sative . They look like a cross between afghani and skunk with a little of something else . They look like they have northern lights in them to .

The problem is fretiliser . The balance is wrong but i cant say what part/s .

The leaf to stem to bud ratio is not optimal , your growing to much leaf and stem .

The bud to light ratio is not enough . The lights are to far away from the plants .

The space to bud ratio is not good .

From the lights you have and the space you have you could more than double the bud harvest and probably make it 3 times as much .

If you did a sea of green or something like that youd get much better results .

I would advise you next time to give half of the plants the same fertiliser in the same amounts and the other half less and keep records so that you can see what changes it makes . Solveing your problem will take time , several generations .


Ethanol / vodka would probably be your best bet and then drink it . Dry the leaves , powder them and cover them with vodka for a day useing as little vodka as posible . Do it somewhere warm , with no light and in a closed container . Do that three times , mix the sieved off vodka together and bottle it . The strongest rum or vodka is nice mixed with the oils . Dont use acetone as it will extract to much shit with the goodys .

 

[im1badpup]

god, id much rather have you tell me where i go wrong like you are than fill me full of shit lol, its not discouraging, knowing i can improve by quite a bit is more than encouraging!
they was vegged for about 3 weeks, the first 5 days was at 12/12, i was trying to create a "bushy" plant rather than a tall one, in part i succeeded i suppose. they never got bent,nipped, or main stem removed.
if i vegged for two weeks, and had maybe 9 plants in the same space, they would pretty much fill the grow area, the smaller plants would last better before i get this fert problem in the 30litre pots nute wise also?
i have recently bought some westlands advanced+, john innes no3, and jab to try, i got 350litres altogether, about the same price as 1 bag of canna pro+
i am very tempted to run a couple of plants in each, and a couple in "mixed" pots of medium. it would make a reasonable comparison grown side by side, im not specifically after huge yields, or am making money, i just like fucking about, and a tasty shit hot smoke is reward enough.
i try to think of the 1gpw as the "holy grail" where if i had a perfect grow thats what i could achieve, ive wasted about a third of my growspace this time, and lost a couple days proper light intensity when i blew a bulb, if i was to measure how i did this time, id go for .67gpw due to space wastage.. then detract from there.
god, them outdoor pics are awesome, i was looking at them this morning, feeling gutted i cant do outdoors here, living in a city, nosey neighbours n all that.

the only thing that puts me off doing 20-30 plants sog is the legality issue.

mods, would there be any problem if i listed (or anyone else did) cheaper nutes that do exactly the same as the expensive ones? i am a bit nieve to mentioning brand names as to legality for the site.

hm an afterthought about the leaf and stem ... my application of nitrozyme could well be partly a culprit there, along with the 12/12 to try and create a more bushy plant.

 

[Dantediv86]

I second GOD completely.

however, do try just growing them in some normal pot, with really average soil, and a natural amount of light, not too much water...i do understand your legal restriction. But often nature has it's best results when left alone, it really knows what it's supposed to do, and loved for just existing...
Seriously, the father in law of my cousin has the richest in nutrients plants the labs in the region have ever seen...but then again he spend hours talking to them.

 

[Mr.Smith]

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[im1badpup]

your right about the potassium, i added too much in one feed, realised a couple hours later, missed it out the next, then went back to normal. the plants showed the signs about 2 days later.
ive tried keeping to using rainwater throughout this time, to keep cl and ca levels down (my tapwater is high in both) to prevent mg lockout.
is mg defiency more common in hydro than soil?
this summer, im pretty anxious to try several methods on "legal" plants in the garden, specific aims are to increase rootball size in some, foliage in others, essential oil content in some more, compared to a control plant, all of these in a cost effective way.
voodoo juice does massively increase rootball size maybe by 100%- interesting if your thinking of plants with alkaloids in the root system perhaps.
nitrozyme creates more branching and leafier plants than the norm, 20-30%?
rox juice, now i havnt used this personaly, (some of you will remember "superbud" - huge increase in bud yield, shitty taste, not as much crystal also banned because of questions about suspected carcinogens) well im about 90% sure i have seen cannabis treated with rox juice and it makes the buds HIGHLY resinous compared to norm, i had a little read up and a chemical contained in it, chlormequat chloride (2-thloroethylthrimethyl ammonium chloride ) was one of the pgrs listed and i wondered if it was this one that could increase essential oil content in a plant.
i have no interest in using it on cannabis. i would much rather try it out on a couple of garden plant clones, distill and compare oil%
any chemist care to chime in on pgrs and increasing essential oil content?

 

[Mr.Smith]

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[Sticki]

Maybe a dose of Grow for the sick pheno every 4th feed?

 

[im1badpup]

mr smith, i thought a few times of trying nitric instead of phosporic, but never got round to it, is there much of a difference/improvement?
the dolomite lime im gonna add next time round, i quite often get a mg defiency mid stages of flowering.
Sticki, i tried adding more grow last time round, with no improvement, i think god hit the nail on the head, either incorrect feed ratio causing nutrient lockout,or perhaps to much leaf from adding nitrozyme, then the plant shedding to compensate, or bad genetics.
ill post a couple better quality pics when they done, be a while yet though

 

[Mr.Smith]

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[im1badpup]

that was the big one, trimmed the leaf while the plant still up, dunno what it weighs yet, the smallest one weighed in @ 132 g
this ones definately at least twice as heavy :weedman: